Hello!
Who am I going to be and what is my life going to look like?
Today we meet Samantha Mann and we’re talking about the queer book that saved her life: The Hours by Michael Cunningham.
Samantha writes essays & articles exploring culture, mental health, motherhood, & LGBTQ issues. Her work has been featured in The Cut, Vogue, Elle, TODAY, Romper, and more. Her forthcoming collection, Dyke Delusion, debuts June 2025.
The Hours tells the story of three women: Virginia Woolf, beginning to write Mrs. Dalloway as she recuperates in a London suburb with her husband in 1923; Clarissa Vaughan, beloved friend of an acclaimed poet dying from AIDS, who in modern-day New York is planning a party in his honor; and Laura Brown, in a 1949 Los Angeles suburb, who slowly begins to feel the constraints of a perfect family and home. By the end of the novel, these three stories intertwine in remarkable ways, and finally come together in an act of subtle and haunting grace.
Connect with Samantha
website: samantha-mann.com
instagram: @samantha.mann05
Shout out to Alyy Patel
For more information about Alyy Patel and the Queer South Asian Women’s Network visit: qsawnetwork.com.
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Credits
Host/Founder: J.P. Der Boghossian
Executive Producer: Jim Pounds
Associate Producers: Archie Arnold, K Jason Bryan and David Rephan, Bob Bush, Natalie Cruz, Jonathan Fried, Paul Kaefer, Joe Perazzo, Bill Shay, and Sean Smith
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Transcript
This transcript is auto-generated by our recording platform Riverside.fm. This transcript may not include episode narration and contains the original interview between J.P. Der Boghossian and today’s guests. Any time-stamps do not correspond to the released audio file and tend not to be fully generated throughout the entire interview. It is approximately 85% accurate and will include spelling and grammatical errors. For any quotation purposes, we strongly recommend referencing the audio.
J.P. Der Boghossian (00:06.614)
Okay, Samantha, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourself?
Samantha Mann (00:10.038)
Hi JP, thanks for having me today. I am Samantha Mann. I’m a Brooklyn -based essayist. I cover topics like queer life, mental health, fertility, motherhood, and pop culture.
J.P. Der Boghossian (00:25.022)
I love that. As an aspiring essayist myself,
Samantha Mann (00:34.216)
wow. Recently for the cut, I wrote about my experience being hypnotized to fly. have a fear of flying and I have always been kind of back and forth on more out there experimental techniques. I’ve always been very like therapy, medicine. We must follow science. So I kind of went on a limb. I tried hypnosis. It was super successful, but I like found some interesting things came up during that experience.
J.P. Der Boghossian (01:05.858)
never been hypnotized before. Did it work?
Samantha Mann (01:08.328)
It did work. mean, I think I need to do it again before I fly, which I’m okay with. I don’t think it’s like a one and done forever, but it was the least stressful, most calm I have felt on a flight in years. So I don’t know if it works for everybody, but it was highly successful for me. And it was nice to open up and be open to trying something new for myself.
J.P. Der Boghossian (01:32.11)
love that. Okay, real quick, is your microphone on your cord?
Samantha Mann (01:39.252)
No, just my MacBook Air.
J.P. Der Boghossian (01:43.239)
okay. That’s weird. I’m hearing like rustling noises.
J.P. Der Boghossian (01:49.678)
Okay, I know this is hard for me to do as well if you could try to like sit still. I don’t know where that rustling noise is coming from. But there we go. We’ll try to minimize it. how did you become an, like how did you come to be an essayist?
Samantha Mann (02:08.17)
I love this question because I came to it because I decided it’s what I wanted to do. And I think for a lot of people, there’s this idea that you have to go to school, you have to be in a profession that makes money and you can be successful. And a lot of us put our art to the side. I grew up writing, I grew up in journalism, I grew up being part of the school paper.
And then after graduate school, I was working as a psychologist. I’m a behavioral therapist. And I love that. And I realized after two or three years, though, that I really missed writing. And I said, there’s no reason I can’t also do this. So I do not have an MFA. I do not have a professional background. I just started taking classes, cold pitching editors and building a community space. So I always, always encourage people to pursue their art.
And their day job, there isn’t this need for either or.
J.P. Der Boghossian (03:06.072)
So first of all, yay, also someone who doesn’t have their MFA. But I think for a lot of folks who are pursuing that sort of, I don’t want to call it like a DIY route, but are going to jump in and do that, there is kind of that insecurity around, well, how am I developing my craft? How do I know that I am, you know, making it? And sometimes you just can’t rely on, you know, rejection letters or an editor to actually give you feedback. So what is your advice for those writers in terms of developing their craft?
Samantha Mann (03:19.803)
huh.
Samantha Mann (03:27.778)
huh.
Samantha Mann (03:34.437)
I think a couple of things. think reading a lot, a lot of whatever your interest is, if it’s fiction, if it’s nonfiction, making sure you’re getting your hands on a lot of different stuff and doing a lot of reading and listening. I think taking classes. I think finding a group of people that you trust their opinion. But then ultimately, think very like, I don’t know if there’s any theater nerds out there, but very Sunday in the park with George, it’s not really up to you to decide.
if your stuff is good. you are working hard at something and taking the time to develop your craft, it’s going somewhere. And I think at some point that’s the most you can do.
J.P. Der Boghossian (04:13.726)
great advice. That’s great advice.
Samantha Mann (04:16.012)
Because we can’t really worry too much. Everybody’s gonna have an opinion on your thing. So as long as you’re trusting your gut and making the thing you wanna make, you learn the techniques, you learn how to put the house together, but then you ultimately decide what it’s gonna look like.
J.P. Der Boghossian (04:31.214)
Wonderful. Is there also a technical thing that I wanted to share with you? Because all this stuff I’m going to edit together. If we get into a question and you’re like, can we start over? We can start over. And because I can edit it out, like I’m going to edit this out right now, what I’m saying. And do you want to share anything about your
Therapeutic practice, like in the event that if someone wants to reach out and establish a real, like a client based relationship, do you want to share about that? Or I can just sort of know.
Samantha Mann (05:03.092)
Nope, like to keep it. I work with children, so I like to keep it pretty separate.
J.P. Der Boghossian (05:05.819)
great. Then I’m going to not answer that question. All right. do you prefer Samantha or Sam?
Samantha Mann (05:14.218)
Most people call me Sam.
J.P. Der Boghossian (05:15.883)
Okay. So Sam, what is the queer book that saved your life?
Samantha Mann (05:22.432)
The Queer Book That Saved My Life is The Hours by Michael Cunningham.
J.P. Der Boghossian (05:27.68)
I absolutely treasure this novel and I am first curious, how did it come to you? How did you find it?
Samantha Mann (05:34.758)
I found this book in a suburban Barnes and Noble where I was always ratting around as a, you know, literary teenager, probably on a big table in the front because the movie was coming out. So it was Nicole Kidman, Julianne Moore. Who am I missing? Meryl Streep, excuse me. I was so rude. So I think that kind of drew me into it and I picked it up and I didn’t see the movie.
J.P. Der Boghossian (05:54.519)
Nail straight.
Samantha Mann (06:03.934)
until at that point, I didn’t see it in theater. So you had to wait a year or two for it to come out on HBO. But that is how I picked it up, was seeing the cover, seeing these women that I was gaga over anyway. And then it just happened to fall into this thing that was so important to my upbringing.
J.P. Der Boghossian (06:22.834)
I am, so I have my copy of it right here and I got mine out of Borders Books. So forgive me because it does have the movie cover on it. But it is, it was the same for me. The film had just come out and that’s the copy that Borders was stocking. And then I just grew so attached to it because it traveled with me that I didn’t want to buy a different version of it. But what it…
Samantha Mann (06:26.208)
Yes. Love that.
Samantha Mann (06:32.34)
Yeah, mine does too.
Samantha Mann (06:49.204)
And the cover’s actually so queer coded. It’s like, of course, young queer people are like, my God, it’s my three mothers. Like, I must, I’m being drawn to this. So it’s like, and you forget, or I forgot, because I reread the book for this, that the talk of Meryl Streep in the book, it’s so wacky, and I had forgotten that piece.
J.P. Der Boghossian (07:04.974)
Mm -hmm.
J.P. Der Boghossian (07:09.026)
Yeah, for folks who haven’t read it yet, there is a point where one of our main characters, who is played by Meryl Streep in the novel, the character is out on the streets of New York and is running errands and sees a movie being filmed and thinks that maybe the actress that is seen on set is Meryl Streep. So was just this really lovely part, but they didn’t keep it in the movie, which would have been hilarious, but maybe not in keeping with the theme of the movie.
One of the questions that I have for you is, what do you feel was the question in your life that you were asking either of yourself or the world around you that the hours when you read it was providing an answer to?
Samantha Mann (07:52.486)
I understand this question cognitively now. I think it was all very subconscious at the time. But the question I was answering, and I think a lot of queer teens are searching for, is who am I gonna be as an adult and what is my life going to look like? And even though this is a overall depressing movie, I felt it was aspirational and positive with.
the Clarissa of it all, which we can talk more about. But that’s the answer it was, question it was answering for me.
J.P. Der Boghossian (08:29.211)
So you see the cover, these three actresses that you’re, you know, you’re, you’re, yeah. I don’t want to say, I was coming up with the word obsessed, but maybe that’s not the right word. That you were very, you know, liked watching and you start reading the novel. Had you read any Virginia Woolf prior to this?
Samantha Mann (08:47.316)
I hadn’t and I think this book did a couple of big things for me. think one, it gave me a direction of what my life could look like. Two, it gave me, I had a few legs that made being in the closet tolerable as a teen and this was one of those like sturdy legs that made that tolerable. And the third one was that it did give me Virginia Woolf and I went on I think like so many lesbians and literary folks to be such a Virginia Woolf head. So.
I didn’t know of her before and of course this was such a great entry point.
J.P. Der Boghossian (09:20.214)
And how would you describe it then for folks who haven’t read it yet? Because it is kind of a retelling of Virginia Woolf’s Mrs. Dalloway.
Samantha Mann (09:28.832)
Yes, and I think for as a writer, I mean, there’s so much to talk about here. I had never seen somebody play with time before the way that Michael plays with time. So the book and JP, please, if you’re better at explaining, just jump in and feel free. But the book, I think, explains the story of Mrs. Dalloway through the past and the present, which was the early aughts.
through a woman named Clarissa and all of the characters that were living one day as Miss Dalloway has lived one day.
J.P. Der Boghossian (10:06.764)
Yeah, it’s really, so there’s one, one of the characters is Virginia Woolf. And so we watch her over a single day. And then another main character is Laura Brown, who is played by Julianne Moore. Virginia Woolf is played by Nicole Kidman, won an Oscar for it. Laura Brown in the 1950s as a housewife, I guess, I don’t mean that in a demeaning way, because there’s so much more happening there with the character of Laura Brown. And then there’s Meryl Streep’s character, who is Clarissa.
and is living in present time of, so I guess it’d be the 90s actually is present time for this novel. And because her name is Clarissa, one of the characters in the book nicknames her Mrs. Dalloway because there’s apparently lots of parallels between them. But it is true, like the original novel, that we follow these three women throughout the course of their day. So each section starts with their mornings and then stuff that happens like during the day.
and then how they come to resolution or non -resolution towards the end of their days and how all of it then seems to come together. And I don’t want to give away, I don’t know, it’s been so long since the film and the novel came out. How are we going to do spoilers here?
Samantha Mann (11:22.006)
think spoilers, if you have not paused and checked it out, I think this is, we’re past spoiler. I think it’s okay.
J.P. Der Boghossian (11:29.102)
Okay, okay, great. But okay, so you’re getting into the novel for that first time. Do you recall what was coming up for you as you were reading it?
Samantha Mann (11:39.824)
Yes, the first thing that was coming up for me that was also so important in terms of my identity was the depression that everybody’s living with and the passive and active suicidal ideations that were going on, which is a big theme throughout the book for all of them in varying ways. And I was definitely a teen who suffered from depression and didn’t understand what that was about. And I felt like such a freak. I felt like something was wrong with me. I lived in
you know, a middle class, upper middle class suburb. I got to do all the after school activities I wanted. I had a nice roof over my head. Kids in my neighborhood were driving BMWs. My parents weren’t divorced. Like what was I so empty about? And I felt really guilty and bad about that. And I, for a long time, also had…
suicidal ideations, but in a very, very passive way for a long time. So I was never actively suicidal. I never had a plan. was just very, my life was very take it or leave it. And I felt like a freak, which I think many teens do. We didn’t have a lot of conversations about mental health or what was going on. And I was very good at keeping it together and presenting a certain type of way. So people also didn’t really know I was feeling that way. And I felt very lonely, which a lot of these characters feel very lonely.
And it was really a turning point where in a way I didn’t feel like such a freak. I thought these women were very intellectual. I thought they were complex. I thought they had a lot to offer the world and they happened to be depressed and dealing with some suicidal thoughts all at the same time. So I kind of was like, maybe I’m not a freak. Maybe I’m a moody intellectual who’s a deep feeler, which could be.
over romanticizing for a teen, like a much better way to be like over romanticizing something negative. So that was deeply helpful, you know, right off the bat with the book.
J.P. Der Boghossian (13:43.64)
All three of the characters are trying to sort of cosplay, if you will, normalcy, right, in their day. And were there any, like, tactics or things that they were doing that you thought, maybe I could try this in getting through my days?
Samantha Mann (13:52.459)
Samantha Mann (14:05.468)
No, because I think what I saw actually was how soul crushing that was and how I was doing that. So I think in the way of like being a positive thing, like I knew that I couldn’t be out of the closet. live, I live right outside Richmond, Virginia, which was the capital of the Confederacy, very conservative town. I knew being out of the closet wasn’t a choice, but I had this knowledge that
J.P. Der Boghossian (14:13.486)
Mm -hmm.
Samantha Mann (14:34.824)
I didn’t have to be Laura Brown. I didn’t have to be Virginia Woolf. Like am a modern millennial woman. I could grow up, I could move. I could buy my own flowers in New York City like Clarissa. I could be depressed and do that too, but I could also be living my own life the way that I saw fit. So it was actually kind of like a rejection and push towards the future for me. And knowing that I could do that.
for the first time was really like eye opening and just was like, okay, I can settle being in the closet. This is four years of your life. You can go on and do things. This is just something you keep in your back pocket. So I actually saw myself in their masking and I was like, I knew I didn’t want to live my life that way.
J.P. Der Boghossian (15:22.668)
Yeah, yeah, it kind of… But what I think of coming up for that is sort Laura Brown, the character, and how she, you know, decides to have her baby, and then what she’s gonna, you know, she kind of creates a plan after what’s gonna happen, you know, when her baby is born. And also, what comes up for me is that Virginia’s choice at the end of the… of her section where she has a fight…
with her husband Leonard on the train station, because she’s trying to go back to London and they sort of decide we’re going to make that plan of how to get back to London, because that’s a big thing for her throughout the book and is one of my favorite scenes, both in the novel and in the film, the film itself. So what was that like then after reading the book and you’re like, okay, I can go and do these things. This possibility is open.
to me, what was then life like for you after reading the novel?
Samantha Mann (16:27.148)
mean, life definitely wasn’t all fixed up at 14 or 15 or 16 or 17 or really until like, you 29. But it was a positive place for my brain to go while simultaneously allowing myself to, I think some people like this book because it allows them to connect with like a real deep sadness within them that feels like really good, but it’s not about you.
J.P. Der Boghossian (16:56.28)
Mm -hmm.
Samantha Mann (16:56.524)
Personally, I guess it is, but it isn’t on the surface. So it was just like this nice, sad place that I had that also provided a hopeful picture. And I think it really radicalized me more towards like women making, I think I wrote my like senior essay about this, like all of the women make unconventional choices to save themselves more or less. And I just…
J.P. Der Boghossian (17:24.12)
Tell me more about that.
Samantha Mann (17:25.376)
found that to be like so rad and powerful. think like ultimately Virginia Woolf does kill herself, which is her choice for freedom. Unfortunately, she didn’t live in a time where people, I mean, I could talk about Virginia Woolf and her intuition that was pushed away from her for medical professionals for so long. You know, if you’re in that scenario where nobody’s believing you or hearing you or giving you proper medical care.
J.P. Der Boghossian (17:49.71)
Mm -hmm.
Samantha Mann (17:51.73)
I don’t blame her for ultimately making that choice. They think that was her way towards freedom. Laura Brown, spoiler alert, leaves her family, which is something, as I read the book, as I’ve gotten older, that has changed so much for me. As a teenager, I thought she was so selfish and I couldn’t believe that. And now as somebody with two children, I understand that choice more. Being a mother.
being a wife is not for everybody and it shouldn’t have to be a choice for everybody. So to leave your family in the 50s was a horrific choice. I’m sure she was a total social social pariah. We know she has to like flee to Canada. Was she also a lesbian? We don’t know. Maybe. Hopefully she has a partner in Canada. But I think it’s more about like leaving your family to like be yourself. I think women in particular.
are so supposed to be connected to a partner, a child, something other than themselves. So to see women put themselves first continues to be and was very radicalizing for me.
J.P. Der Boghossian (19:04.276)
There are a few openly queer characters in the book. I’m thinking of obviously Richard and his ex. there are these moments… And Clarissa Dalloway is… I’m sorry. This is where it’s going to get confusing. Clarissa, played by Meryl Streep in the present day of the 90s, is queer. She’s in a relationship with Alison Janney in the movie. In the original book of Mrs. Dalloway,
Samantha Mann (19:17.395)
huh.
J.P. Der Boghossian (19:33.718)
It’s sort of subtext, would say, her queerness. I want to unpack a little bit more of that then, the queer identity, because some of it is so very clearly explicit, and very clearly also dealing with HIV and AIDS pandemic and coming out of that, which was also very interesting to me reading the novel and the early aughts of, know, we’re now sort of exploring the other side of HIV and AIDS.
But what was coming up for you, and I didn’t realize you were like a teenager teenager reading this, what were those queer elements that were happening for you when you read the book? Because there’s so many to choose from.
Samantha Mann (20:15.018)
liked and I felt all the undertones like Laura and Kitty in the kitchen having that like kind of bizarre kiss and this is something that’s been so interesting to actually grow up with this book because as a teenager I understood I thought I understood Laura in that moment being like that’s so fun I’d love to feel that but then as a college student I understood that moment so deeply when you’re like kissing a girl who’s like
kind of fun. Bye. I’ll see you later.” And you’re like devastated because you just had this like life -altering moment. So like it’s been really interesting to like evolve with it. But I do like how Michael keeps the queerness open and really expansive and doesn’t label everybody. think particularly for the time, I think that’s much more common now. I think of the time it was like you’re gay, straight or bi and we don’t like bisexuals. So let’s wash our hands of that.
J.P. Der Boghossian (20:45.304)
I
J.P. Der Boghossian (21:11.896)
Mm
Samantha Mann (21:14.016)
So I think in terms of the queerness, I like that it’s open and I think it pushes what I love about queer culture is just the expansiveness. We don’t have to name it. We can just live it. Like we also assume that Clarissa has her daughter from a sperm donor because it’s kind of named, but nothing is really named. We just are watching these people live their lives in a not super organized ticked off box way.
and I think that gives everybody a little bit more wiggle room.
J.P. Der Boghossian (21:48.32)
It is a theme of his writing, feel like, at least in the early novels of Michael’s, that there is this ambiguity around queerness and that I think it’d be very hard for these characters to even label themselves. Even Clarissa being in a marriage with another woman, think even Richard, the poet, I think would be very hard -pressed, I think, to name his identity and be like,
I don’t know if trap’s the right word, but be like boxed in by that. think that there’s some really lovely ambiguity in there.
Samantha Mann (22:23.446)
And I think that makes people even today, I think that drives people, and I think that drives a lot of queer people crazy in the wrong way. So I think constantly pushing to give ourselves and each other room to not label everything is so great. And even in my own life, I used to go by a lesbian, I used to like identify as a lesbian. And then for like two or three years, I identified as queer because I thought it was like more inclusive and more whatever. But then I was like, why isn’t the term lesbian?
inclusive. Like just because somebody might be putting that on me doesn’t mean that that is on me. I know what lesbian means for me. So I do think I love it even though it is frustrating for people.
J.P. Der Boghossian (23:05.24)
Yeah, I feel that’s also the nature of where the fight for queer rights has taken us. This idea of like, can’t name a problem, you can’t fix a problem unless you name the problem. And so I feel like that’s kind of a different tactic that has been kind of growing up. And why I think these identity lines have so hardened is to…
is to say, you know, this is, we’re going to fix the problem, this is who it’s for. But queerness is so ambiguous for some folks and the experience of just coming out, right, can be over, you know, some folks come out at 12 and some folks come out, you know, at 62. And all of those ways are valid.
Samantha Mann (23:49.994)
And some people don’t come out at all. So my friend who is a researcher named Ali Patel, who runs the South Asian Women’s Network, Queer South Asian Women’s Network, she is never going to come out to her family. It is not safe for her. She is a queer lesbian in the community doing the work. So she also wants to remind everybody that you don’t have to come out to be queer. That never has to be a part of your journey, particularly if it’s not safe. And that’s
A boxed in narrative that comes from a lot of white spaces where we have safer and different experiences. So it’s all great stuff to keep in mind.
J.P. Der Boghossian (24:26.75)
even that is interesting to me and I’m hoping that Ali will be okay with you saying that.
Samantha Mann (24:32.426)
Yeah, she’s written a book. She’s like in charge of a lot of stuff. She’s a public person.
J.P. Der Boghossian (24:35.99)
Okay, but even that, yeah, even that narrative of, you can still be out, but not out to everybody, right, in your life, is very, I don’t know, it’s very, it’s a lot, it’s a lot to handle. And that’s what I appreciate about Michael Cunningham is he allows that space for that ambiguity and really dives into that ambiguity. I think a lot of people also think of this novel as quote unquote depressing.
and the film as, know, quote unquote depressing. And you had said something earlier of that that’s not necessarily the case. They can be inspiring and hopeful. Can you share a little bit more about that for folks who maybe get started reading it and they’re like, this is, is this just a depressing novel?
Samantha Mann (25:21.514)
Yeah, I think it certainly has depressing themes and I think it is willing to take you to a very dark, real place for these women that we all have in ourselves, which is, think, this sense of, for whatever reason, loneliness, disconnection, being trapped, whether it’s mentally, physically by space or your era that you live in, in this sense of hopelessness.
But what I think is inspiring is that particularly for the day and age that we live in now, things don’t have to be that way. And I think Clarissa in pre -9 -11 New York shows us that even though her life isn’t perfect. And I think even Laura Brown, she does leave her family ultimately. She probably doesn’t live her most inspired life, but she does.
find relief. So there are like ways to find relief. Of course, Virginia finding relief through suicide is not the answer. I think there could have been a different world where she is quote unquote allowed, which is even so tough to say to go back to London, live her life the way she saw fit without all these horrific doctors, which would have also brought her relief. But I think, yeah, just this idea that you
can create relief, even if it’s a very difficult choice, is important for people to know. Like not that it’s gonna be easy, but you are always ultimately in charge of your life, which all these women are.
J.P. Der Boghossian (27:01.516)
It was also interesting to me how the story for Virginia takes place in the 20s, but it does open in the prologue with her. So we know right up front about her death by suicide, but that actually takes place in the 40s. So it is interesting that we’re, you know, he could have said it in the 40s and dealt with, you know, Virginia’s life at that point, but it was very interesting to me that he went back in time to the 20s because that’s when she was writing.
Mrs. Dalloway. There’s also something in there that came up for me and I’m curious if it came up for you as well when you were reading it either the first time or since as you’ve been rereading it of the home and family as being something empty that there that there should be something there but there isn’t. Does that make sense the way that I’m phrasing that question?
Samantha Mann (27:56.596)
Yes, there’s no there there, which is the place where you think you would find the most connection. And I think as queer children and teens and young adults, a lot of us really feel, and I did not put that together, but yeah, I think that’s absolutely a theme of just an empty home. I definitely related to the Laura Brown idea of, you know, a lot of 20th century literature about.
you know, the suburbs will make you want to kill yourself, essentially. I think that is present there. And I really felt that, like, growing up in a very cookie cutter, like, I cannot be here, this will kill you. So that was more present. But yeah, I do think a lot of queer children don’t feel as connected to their home families for varying reasons as we think that you should.
J.P. Der Boghossian (28:29.283)
You
J.P. Der Boghossian (28:50.498)
Yeah, that was for me when I was reading it that first time, having that, maybe alienation is the word that I’m looking for there. That there is this weird, but also I really appreciated about this novel and Michael’s work, at least up until that point, because I’m not as well versed in his work since then. But there’s no coming out stories, really.
In his work, there’s no tragic coming out stories. There is no someone being attacked or killed because of their queerness. I also was just really appreciative of this is queer people trying to make their way in the world. And that was very, was that something that you noticed in reading it the first time that this was, there wasn’t all these tragic elements that we were seeing in a lot of novels for a very long time. And even kind of today where the…
coming out story has to be traumatic and there has to be some type of violence because some character is queer. That just wasn’t here.
Samantha Mann (29:54.272)
Yeah, I mean, it’s certainly not present in a very clear way. And I think it’s actually queerer. And I think this book also helped me find my queer sensibility with like TV shows, music. Like I think a lot of queer people hooked into this for those types of reasons, like straight people or heterosexuals, you know, tend to be more interested in stories where like a queer person saves the day or dies or dies and then his friends save the day for him. But I think
J.P. Der Boghossian (30:05.582)
Mmm.
Samantha Mann (30:23.328)
The devastating truth is like, actually the worst part of being a queer person is just walking around feeling isolated and alone around people. And that’s what this book hits. And that’s why queer people connect with it so much. Because it’s not generally for, of course, many of us have been physically hurt, verbally assaulted, et cetera. But it’s, I think for many people, this lonely sense that you carry around is really what is long term.
devastating.
J.P. Der Boghossian (30:55.854)
That’s such a beautiful way of putting it. Because this novel has such a well -regarded film adaptation, and I have to… I will say that I think this is one of the best film adaptations of a novel, like capturing it, the essence of it. Like I didn’t walk away thinking that, well, don’t actually… I think I saw the film first.
Yeah, I think I saw the film first and then found the novel. But for you, how did the film resonate for you? Was it something that you also felt attached to or was it something that you’re like, the novel’s better, just read the novel?
Samantha Mann (31:40.468)
No, I felt super attached to it. I’ve never been that person. I’m happy to love a film and a book. And it was something, the film was something that my best friend in high school who also turned out to be a lesbian and was very depressed at the time. We like really bonded over and we would talk about incessantly and we would watch together like in the fall and in the winter. So that was like a nice connecting thing. I did just also if.
people are interested in audiobooks. started to reread this for the podcast, but then halfway through I was like, you know what? I’m going to listen to the audiobook and it is Michael Cunningham reading it. It’s really beautiful to hear his voice. If anybody is interested in that, the only big difference I found is that the Richard’s death scene is so much darker and explicit in the book. Not that we needed that in the film, but I
J.P. Der Boghossian (32:16.257)
a while.
J.P. Der Boghossian (32:29.08)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Samantha Mann (32:34.038)
To me that was the only thing that really stood out.
J.P. Der Boghossian (32:38.092)
Yeah, how things thread together and are revealed is better in the novel than it was in the film. I will say, I’ll admit this on the podcast, the film, based off of where I was in my own life and dealing with my own depression and anxiety, there was a period, I think of about two months, where I’d get up, I was living back at home,
with my dad and my brother for reasons. And they would get up and go and do their thing because they had day jobs and I was working second shift at a TV station. so I would hear them get up and leave, kind of like Laura Brown. I would come downstairs, I would put the DVD in the DVD player, I would turn it on. And then as each of them was getting ready for their day, I would then go around and get ready for my day.
Samantha Mann (33:33.354)
Hmm. So was that positive? Because I can actually see, I think this film could trigger some depression in you if you’re on the edge. I don’t think it’s like, if you’re feeling sad, don’t go throw it in the DVD. So do you think that was helpful for you or harmful?
J.P. Der Boghossian (33:46.498)
I think it was very helpful because I was seeing myself reflected in each of them so much that I’m like, okay, they’re getting ready for their day. They’re going to get through it. I’m going to just go along with them and get ready for my day. And there were some days where that’s all I needed, right? would, know, Virginia would come to the top of the stairs and say, I think I have a first sentence. And I’m like, okay, good. This is where I’m going to stop it. And there were some days where I’m like, I’m just going to continue on.
Samantha Mann (34:04.556)
Mm -hmm.
J.P. Der Boghossian (34:15.558)
and finish it. But there was just something about, I think the film, the score is absolutely gorgeous to me. As a writer, if I’m feeling stuck, I just put that on. And I’m not an amazing writer, but it’s an amazing writing score. Like if I’m having any type of writer’s block, or if I’m just getting ready to get going, I’ll turn that score on. And there’s two versions of it. There’s the orchestral version, the violin version.
Samantha Mann (34:27.19)
I was just gonna say that, great writing score.
J.P. Der Boghossian (34:43.416)
And then there is a piano version by Michael Reisman, believe. Don’t quote me on that, but both of them are absolutely excellent if you’re a writer and you want something to write to. It’s an amazing score.
Who? how do I want to phrase this?
J.P. Der Boghossian (35:07.672)
Who is this book that you would recommend to right now? Like if someone’s going through a thing and you were like, I’m gonna recommend this book to you, who is that person right now?
What are they dealing with?
Samantha Mann (35:18.602)
that that is a toughie because like I did mention, I think it could really throw you over the edge also. If you weren’t going, if you were just going into it feelings wise with no thinking to it, I do think it could really bring you down. I think somebody who though is maybe having a hard time but searching. So if you’re searching for.
Because here’s the thing about all these women is they actually have great intuition and already know what they should be doing with their lives. So if you’re somebody who needs that boost, you’re like, I don’t know what’s going on with my life, career, relationship, where should I live? The truth is we all already know the answer, but sometimes for cultural reasons, family reasons, mental health reasons, it’s hard to check in with that.
I do think this really gives a push for that. Like helping you, somebody who needs to figure out what should I do with my life, but it needs to come from within. I think this book and film would be helpful for those people.
J.P. Der Boghossian (36:24.664)
That’s an amazing way putting it. Did you read Mrs. Dalloway after this?
Samantha Mann (36:29.856)
Yes, I read Miss Dalloway in high school. have my teacher, I was such a nerd, my high school English teacher gave me her copy of A Room of One’s Own where she had all her little handwritten notes, which was so important to me.
J.P. Der Boghossian (36:41.134)
Mm.
J.P. Der Boghossian (36:46.061)
wait, what? No, tell me more about that.
Samantha Mann (36:48.778)
She just knew that I like loved Virginia Woolf and she was like, we, also, she was like, here’s something you might like. It’s like my own copy. And of course I was in love with all of my English teachers. So she gave me her version of a room of one’s own, but it was like from college or something. And she had all her little citations in it and things that she circled. And it was like the most romantic thing that had ever happened to me. She was also like married with three kids, but it felt really romantic.
J.P. Der Boghossian (37:17.698)
Right? that would have a very heady experience. my gosh. I wish something like that would have happened to me. But yeah, so I think that it… I don’t know how put this. Yeah, I think that the novel pairs really well with Mrs. Dalloway. Like, I think it’s such an amazing adaptation. But also, when I went and read Mrs. Dalloway and then I’ve reread Mrs. Dalloway throughout the years, I just feel like…
both of them inform each other so much that you sort of… I don’t know. It’s one of those times where this is… have to… I’m sort of at the place where you have to read them together. What are your thoughts about that?
Samantha Mann (37:59.606)
think that’s a great idea and I’m somebody who like I am obsessed with Virginia Woolf as like a historian. I’ve read all the biographies. I love to know the nitty gritties. I’ve read the diaries. I’ve read a lot of stuff. I find that easier and more important for me quite frankly than like reading her work. I have always found to be a bit difficult. So I think pairing it with something is super helpful and I think if you’re interested in Virginia Woolf that’s a great place to start is reading them as a pairing and actually be great if somebody came up with like
some more pairing stuff. Her work is kind of dense. We’re not used to reading that format. So it can feel a little daunting.
J.P. Der Boghossian (38:39.35)
It is very stream of consciousness. But I feel in a much better way than like James Joyce.
But I guess for me, when I get used to the idea of visually like you’re, I sort of think of, when I think of her work as like cinematic and the idea of like, we’re just going to be moving throughout all of these people’s brains, throughout all of the scenes. And you just kind of have to get ready, like, okay, who am I, whose brain am I jumping into right now? And sometimes it’s literally like you’re just some.
Samantha Mann (39:00.271)
Mmm.
Samantha Mann (39:05.43)
Mm -hmm.
J.P. Der Boghossian (39:09.696)
random person on the street as looking at Clarissa Dalloway and having thoughts about it. And then it comes back into Clarissa’s point of view. It’s just a, it’s really, and he kind of does that, Michael, in this novel, but he tends to stay a little bit more structured and that you know who is talking, you know who’s POV that you’re in. Yeah, but.
Samantha Mann (39:21.964)
Mm -hmm.
J.P. Der Boghossian (39:35.65)
Are there things that I haven’t asked about this novel that you just love talking about? Because it’s really kind of come back. The questions and prompts are really coming from my POV right now. Speaking of point of view.
Samantha Mann (39:45.032)
Yeah, no, I know. No, I mean, I think the Virginia Woolf thing, one more thing that I’m going to send you. for my, have an essay collection coming out and I wrote an entire like research paper about my theory that Freud actually sent her over the edge to commit suicide because people forget they were like in the same time and they like knew each other, were in contact, she had visited him. Terrible man.
J.P. Der Boghossian (40:11.948)
What?
Samantha Mann (40:14.284)
I mean, listen, I’m also a psychologist. There are some things that we want to leave. There’s some things we want to, you know, keep, leave behind. But I’ll definitely send that to you just for like, I feel like a really fun read. But yeah, in terms of the hours, no, I mean, I just love talking to people who love it and feel moved by it and connected to it.
It’s actually, it’s such a complicated book to even explain to people. If you were like, what happens in the hours? There’s no quick, like two sentence explanation. It’s so intertwined. So I think that does make talking about it a little trickier with people who aren’t like deep in it.
J.P. Der Boghossian (41:00.76)
Mm -hmm.
Samantha Mann (41:03.168)
But no, I just think it’s really rad.
J.P. Der Boghossian (41:03.436)
I always like that question, or it’s not a question, it’s a statement. When is it in the book or is it in the film where Virginia’s like, and it takes place over a single day, a woman’s life told in a single day. Do you know that line I’m thinking of?
Samantha Mann (41:19.746)
Mm -hmm. think it’s in the beginning when she’s like writing her book.
J.P. Der Boghossian (41:24.128)
Yeah.
Samantha Mann (41:26.41)
And I actually, wonder why he has her suicide note at the beginning now. Like, I’d love your thoughts on this because he could end it like the other characters where they’re getting relief from something that isn’t death. Like, we could leave Virginia at the end of the book where she thinks she’s moving back to London. Any thoughts on that?
J.P. Der Boghossian (41:45.654)
I think it’s tied to one, I’m glad that we see it upfront. know, sometimes with certain things, I’m just glad to know something upfront. I’m not having to think about it, because that’s not the point I think of her, of it. But there’s that line, if I’m remembering correctly, at the end where Leonard is asking Virginia, why does Septimus have to die in Mrs. Dalloway? And…
Like, why does the poet have to die? And she’s like, the visionary has to die so that the rest of us will appreciate life more. And that just always kind of stuck with me. I really felt that I wish that Richard hadn’t died in there. You know, it, it is what it is. It happens. But for me, I think that it’s such a, it’s such a huge part of her story.
Samantha Mann (42:18.305)
Huh.
Samantha Mann (42:26.721)
Mm -hmm.
Samantha Mann (42:39.615)
huh.
J.P. Der Boghossian (42:40.386)
Virginia’s biography, I guess, that I think it would have been weird for him not to have include something about it. But I liked in my brain, that was where it went is that I’m including Michael maybe saying to himself, I’m including this because of Virginia’s idea of, you know, the visionary, the poet has to die so that we can have a different viewpoint or different perspective on how to live.
and live as a human being on this sometimes stupid, ridiculous planet.
Samantha Mann (43:12.268)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, think that, no, I think that tracks. I think we have to continue, and this is obviously, this book is, you know, what, 20 years old? Not 20 years old? No way. Maybe it’s older. I think we do have to be careful or thoughtful because I do think growing up also, I think he wrote, he writes that in the book. I think that’s a thing that people think and I think can seep into
J.P. Der Boghossian (43:13.89)
But that’s my take, I don’t know.
J.P. Der Boghossian (43:28.142)
Yeah, when is it?
Samantha Mann (43:42.038)
thoughtful, emotional, creative folks to like, it’s this constant conversation of, my work only good when I’m sad? Am I only important if I die? And we want people to know that these things are not true. Like Virginia Woolf’s work, she didn’t die until she was in her sixties. Her work would have been with us. Anne Sexton, she didn’t die until she was in her sixties. You can, you know, check these numbers. Her work would have been important.
J.P. Der Boghossian (43:50.785)
Mmm.
J.P. Der Boghossian (43:57.154)
Mm
Samantha Mann (44:05.26)
Sylvia Plast’s work would have been important. These were people whose work was already out there. Does it elevate it to something more mystical? Sure, but I do think it’s important that young artistic people don’t think that being depressed is the only way to make good art or be important. Which is obviously not Michael Cunningham’s job.
J.P. Der Boghossian (44:22.176)
Yes. Well, no, but what you’re saying there also makes me think about how…
Because it’s a big thing about Virginia’s storyline explicitly is that she’s not getting the doctors that she needs and she’s not getting, and she knows it, right? She’s like calling them Victorian doctors and that they don’t know what they’re talking about. And I think doctors on a variety of level, you know, and now I did not realize the relationship with Freud, but if there was, you know, psychotherapy in there as well as we understood it back then, and you would know more about that than I do. But I also think that there is something about that of if
There had been, and we know it, reading it now from today, from our late 20th century and our 21st century perspectives, that if there had been those resources, if there had been that access, if that those treatment options and understanding wouldn’t have been available to Virginia, maybe that she wouldn’t have done that. Maybe Richard wouldn’t have have, because I think Richard was having schizophrenia, wasn’t he by the end there? Because of the complications from
Samantha Mann (45:03.706)
huh.
Samantha Mann (45:27.606)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
J.P. Der Boghossian (45:31.032)
from AIDS and HIV, but even today, our understanding of that and our treatment of that is so much more different and better that it is, I think there’s also that theme running through the novel of…
that late 20th century POV of if only the medicine and the medicinal medical field had been better, would still have Virginia, we would still have Richard.
Samantha Mann (45:49.355)
Yes.
Samantha Mann (45:56.842)
Right. Yeah. And I do think similarly, it is a depressing book and we meet people at depressing times, but we don’t also want to over, which again is not Michael Cunningham’s job, but just when people are reading the book and finding out about Virginia Woolf, know, Virginia Woolf, Sylvia Plath, people kind of look at quickly as like morose depressed people. And these are women who actually had a huge lust for life and loved living.
And that’s, think, why their depression was even more like heartbreaking for them. So, you know, I just am always very cognizant of young people over romanticizing depression. can’t create your best work when you’re depressed, et cetera. And these aren’t people who lived depressed 24 seven. These were people who loved to like study flowers and kept food journals and looked at ladybugs. And that isn’t a type of person painted. These are people who hate the world.
J.P. Der Boghossian (46:33.347)
Mm -hmm.
J.P. Der Boghossian (46:49.912)
painted.
J.P. Der Boghossian (46:54.766)
Yeah, that’s such a lovely way of putting it. Okay, well, what is next in life for Sam Mann?
Samantha Mann (47:08.524)
I have a new essay collection coming out in June, 2025 with read furiously called dyke delusions, which of course covers some queer stuff, but has motherhood, fertility, mental health journeys, relationships, culture. It’s got an essay on Freud killing Virginia Wolf. It’s got a research paper on how horny your mom’s, which culturally looks at
You know, we’ve decided moms are either frigid or psychotically horny, and then they’re crazy. So I did a whole research paper with data to figure out how horny our moms. So if you’re interested in any of that, you know, check it out when it comes out.
J.P. Der Boghossian (47:53.23)
I do have a question about how does the hours inform your writing right now, if at all?
Samantha Mann (48:05.27)
think it consciously informs my writing other than as a young person when I began to write it helped me realize you didn’t need to be afraid of the dark stuff. You didn’t need to try to cover that stuff up and that’s places where people would really feel connected to you. So I really like to write what I say like down to like the bones and the tendons. I don’t like to like sugarcoat things and I’m sure this was helpful.
in showing that that’s possible and not something to be afraid of.
J.P. Der Boghossian (48:42.232)
Love that. And how do folks connect with you around your book launch and other projects that you have coming out?
Samantha Mann (48:51.244)
Sure, you can follow me on Instagram at samantha .man, it’s M-A -N -N, zero five. I also am gonna be teaching some writing workshops this fall, so I would love to see you all there. I do individual essay editing, which I don’t have a ton of availability, but if that’s something you’re interested in, feel free to reach out. Yeah, that’s where I am.
J.P. Der Boghossian (49:04.558)
Ooh.
J.P. Der Boghossian (49:19.246)
Great. Well, fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today. Yeah, I’m going to click stop recording. Please don’t go anywhere.
Samantha Mann (49:25.142)
Thanks, this was awesome.
