Hello!

No queer person is an island. Even if we start off that way.

Today we meet Robin Jeffrey and we’re talking about the book that saved her life: Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand by Samuel R. Delaney.

Robin Jeffrey is the author of the series of classic murder mysteries with scifi-twists, The Cadence Turing Mysteries and the paranormal romance series The Night. A former academic librarian, she holds a B.A. in English Language and Literature from the University of Washington and a M.S. in Library and Information Science from the University of Kentucky. Robin currently resides in the Pacific Northwest.

Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand is a science fiction masterpiece, an essay on the inexplicability of sexual attractiveness, and an examination of interstellar politics among far-flung worlds. First published in 1984, the novel’s central issues―technology, globalization, gender, sexuality, and multiculturalism―have only become more pressing with the passage of time.

Connect with Robin Jeffrey

website: robinjeffreyauthor.com
instagram: @thesidekick_ig

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Credits

Host/Founder: J.P. Der Boghossian
Executive Producer: Jim Pounds
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Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated by our recording platform Riverside.fm. This transcript may not include episode narration and contains the original interview between J.P. Der Boghossian and today’s guests. Any time-stamps do not correspond to the released audio file and tend not to be fully generated throughout the entire interview. It is approximately 85% accurate and will include spelling and grammatical errors. For any quotation purposes, we strongly recommend referencing the audio.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Hey everyone.

College. College is so random. You think you’re taking a course on Scifi as Literature and one of the assigned books that you read is a book that you didn’t know existed and didn’t even know you needed it. Until you start reading it. What if you hadn’t taken that course? What if you had taken it from an instructor who didn’t include it their syllabus?

Random, right? Well, luckily for our guest, she did take the right course, with the right instructor, who assigned them the queer book that radically transformed everything for her.

My name is J.P. Der Boghossian, I’m your host, and you’re listening to This Queer Book Saved My Life.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Robin is the author of the The Cadence Turing Mystery Series – which is a classic murder mystery series with a science fiction twist!

She is also the author of The Night Series, a contemporary, paranormal urban fantasy series of werewolves.

And as an academic librarian, she worked at my favorite type of college, the best kind actually.

Now, Robin has always been a scribbler. Throughout her life, she’s been working on books and flash fiction. And eight months ago, she realized that if she doesn’t do it now, she’s not going to do it. So, she took the leap and became a full time writer.

Here is my conversation with Robin.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Okay, Robin, what is the queer book that saved your life?

Robin Jeffrey .
So the queer book that saved my life is Stars in My Pockets Like Grains of Sand by Samuel R. Delaney. I read it when I was a, gosh, I think I was in my final year of college, which for me I only did three years of undergrad. I was what we call running start student, so I did a year of college when I was in high school and.

I was a very precocious child. So I did a year of high school when I was, of college when I was in high school. And then I, in my last year as an undergrad and getting my BA in English, I took a sci -fi as literature course. And I was lucky enough to have a teacher who selected stars in my pocket, like grains of sand as one of our readings. And it absolutely changed everything for me.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
First, let’s start with the, hmm, so it’s got a very interesting plot. So how do we break that down for folks who haven’t read it yet?

Robin Jeffrey .
Yes.

Robin Jeffrey .
That’s a really good question. so I think probably the best way to put it is, well, first of all, to know that it is a, the first book of an unfinished, diptych. So like it’s, it’s supposed to be a two book series and Samuel or Delaney never finished the second book. It’s not to say he never will, but there are no plans for it to be finished at this moment. So if you’re going into it, expecting it to answer all the questions that it brings up, you’ll be disappointed.

But luckily, I think it’s so good that you don’t care that there are some unanswered questions in the end. But essentially, it kind of centers around two different characters who go through some very different societal experiences and find each other in a really beautiful way and then are kind of pulled apart again. And the kind of big question at the end is…

What’s gonna happen? Are they gonna find each other again? Are they lost forever? And it’s kind of a big question mark. We don’t know. Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Right? Yeah. So let’s start with, so there’s a big thing that’s happening on the planets. I feel like there’s some certain things that we need to like lay the structure for so that we can, you know, help in unpacking the conversation. Cause I really want to dive into its impact on you. So there’s this, it does take place in the future, but I love, I was reading a quote, from Samuel who’s like, sci -fi isn’t about the future. It’s in dialogue with the present. but he’s got, which is this first concept of cultural fugue.

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Right, so this one planet that our first main character, Corga, am I pronouncing that right, do you think? Corga? Corga, yeah, so is on a planet that basically experiences cultural fugue, right, where it just basically is destroyed.

Robin Jeffrey .
I think yes.

Robin Jeffrey .
Right, yeah, and he’s the only survivor.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
and then on another planet is, wow, I feel like I’m like, how do I do this? there’s Mark, right? Is Emma pronouncing that correct? Mark, you think? Okay. -A -R -Q. who is like a translator, I guess of sorts. Is that fair? Right? Like works with other species. Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yes, I believe so. Yes.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah, it kind of works like in the diplomatic corps, I mean what their version of the diplomatic corps is. So yes, yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
And then there’s this, I don’t know, how do we, what corg goes through. How do we describe that? What corga goes through?

Robin Jeffrey .
Well, it’s like there’s a procedure, like the, I love the opening of the book where it’s like the very first line is dialogue, which as a writer, I’m just like, Ooh, I love that. Where it just says like, of course you will be a slave. Like that’s how it opens. And so basically he, Corga somewhat voluntarily with big quotation marks around it goes through this procedure.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
called radical anxiety termination, I think it is. They call it RAT, where he’s kind of psychologically…

altered to essentially have no desire of any kind, not just sexual or anything like that, but just like he doesn’t want anything. He’s just kind of an automaton. And that gets reversed throughout the course of the book. But it’s a really interesting.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
kind of conceit and concept that they have this whole, this planet that Corgis starts on has this whole society, this whole caste system of rats, of people who have overgone this procedure and they’re treated so horribly, so horribly. But it’s almost like, well, it’s like, well, they volunteered for it, so it’s fine. It’s like, no, it’s not fine. It’s not okay.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah. So what was coming up for you like when you’re reading it in undergrad for the first time? I mean, it’s a pretty heady book.

Robin Jeffrey .
It is, it is heavy and mostly it was just like I had never read and I think a lot of people who read Delaney kind of have this experience where it’s like I’d never read anything like this before as far as the plot but also as far as the prose like his style I just never read anything that took that took me so out of myself and yet was so familiar at the same time you know that was so

So like a kind of a funhouse mirror, you know, where it’s like I recognize myself in there, but it is really distorted. And so what was coming up for me as I was reading it was especially a lot of the when Mark and Corga first meet. It was just this whole idea. So like part of Mark society, which I’m sure we were going to get into at some point, is the pronouns, for example, everyone is referred to as a woman or she.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
for legal reasons, essentially, just societally how their system is laid out. But it’s very unclear what anyone’s biological sex is. And Delaney just plays with that so beautifully in the text. And it just made me go, there’s a world where there’s not a binary, where you don’t have to do

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
either or, there’s not a one path and then another path and that’s it. Like there is a way to exist in society without having to choose a lane essentially. And I was like, that’s so cool. I had never thought of that before. And for me coming up in my last year of college, I was dealing with some feelings that I didn’t know how to label. And that later I looked on and I was like, yeah, I was coming to terms with the fact that I was bisexual.

And so having this experience of reading this book where it’s like, you can do both. You can be both. There’s room for a multitude. Was really powerful for me and gave me a language of acceptance that I really needed and I didn’t have.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Tell me more about that.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah, well, it’s like I, I had definitely always struggled with feelings that it was like, I didn’t quite fit in either camps. You know, like I was always an ally in high school, you know, where I was like, you know, in the, I considered myself the A before I knew what A really stood for in LGBTQIA. Sorry, sorry, shout out to all my ace peeps. But you know, I was like, I’m an ally. But that’s where I stand is that I’m there to support other.

people who are in the LGBTQ community, but that’s not me. But I also knew that it’s like, but I do have these feelings of attraction towards women, but I don’t know what to do with that because clearly I also like men. So it’s like, I can’t be both. And so for a long time, I just kind of buried those feelings down because I just didn’t know what to do with them.

And I didn’t feel like society was in a place, and I certainly wasn’t in a place where it’s like I feel comfortable expressing both sides of myself like that.

And I was really struggling with that all through college, especially because I had a long -term boyfriend at the time who I love very much, but I still had this sense that I was like, I’m not really being myself. I’m not really being true to myself. I’m not really being fully honest with this other person who I very much care for.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
And then I read this book and it was like, there are shades. There’s a spectrum. There’s different ways to be in the world besides black and white, besides either or. And that was enormously freeing in a way I really needed.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
In college, you know, I think a lot of people think of college as just, you know, when you get there, then suddenly there’s all this freedom to experiment and to find yourself. And I’m like, sometimes, you know, that’s not, that’s not necessarily true. Like I went to a, you know, in my first life, I was a, you know, an actor and I went to a theater academy and it was insanely homophobic.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
You know, it was very, you are straight and if you don’t, if you’re not, you’re not gonna get a job, you know what I mean? But it was all implicit, you know what I mean? Like you didn’t want to get pegged as a queer actor, right? You wanted it to be at best ambiguous, you know what I mean? Otherwise you’re not gonna get all these straight roles. And so, you know, when I tell people that, they’re like, you probably went to the gayest school in the country. I was like, no, actually none of us were out. No one identified as that. And if they did, it was like seen as this like weird, like, my God.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yes. Yeah.

Mm -hmm

J.P. Der Boghossian .
So what was your college experience like? Because you’re saying you got all the way to senior year and it wasn’t until reading this book. So what was that like, I guess, can you unpack that for me of you sort of navigating that college experience?

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah, it was, it was very, it wasn’t, it wasn’t quite as extreme, I think, as yours, but it was very much where it was like either you were straight and so you were just living quote unquote the normal life or if you were, you know, gay, it was almost a political statement. You know, it’s like you had to be living that life seven and just be really outspoken and

J.P. Der Boghossian .
No

Robin Jeffrey .
You know, going to Pride all the time. Like, your life was a Pride parade. And for me, I was like, I don’t want that. Like, you know, deep down I was like, I don’t, I’m not ready for that. I don’t want that. I don’t want my life to turn into that. I’m not comfortable with that. So I was like, so I guess I’m straight. It’s like, if I can’t be % queer, I guess I’m just straight. Those are my options.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Robin Jeffrey .
And that was definitely how it felt. It was like there are two tracks and you have to pick a side. And it wasn’t necessarily the people who identified as LGBTQ were shunned or looked down on or anything, but it was just they definitely had their own kind of clique and group and style. And I was like, I don’t…

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
I don’t fit that. I think Hannah Gadsby, the comedian, had a great thing where she was like, where did the quiet gaze go? You know? And I felt that in my soul in college where I was just like, I’m just not, I’m not like that. I don’t want to be that politically.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
yeah, that’s right.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
vocal right now. I’m not that comfortable with my identity. I’m not, I didn’t grow up with it like that. You know, my, my, my family background was very…

Robin Jeffrey .
very open about the fact that there were other sexualities, but also very much like, but that’s for other people, not for us. You know, where it’s like, yeah, there are gay people and lesbians and yeah, and that’s all, that’s all well and good for them, but not for us. And it’s like, okay. Yeah. So.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah, yeah, that tolerance, but it’s for outside the group, not necessarily inside the group. Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Exactly. Yes, we’re totally fine with with gay people, but you know, not like in the family. It’s like, OK. Right. Yeah, it was. And even after reading this book, I didn’t really come out to my family.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mmm, that must have been rough.

Robin Jeffrey .
for a good few years after that. This book was kind of like my coming out to myself, because it was the, it was like, okay, I can be this. But it still took me a while to be like, I can be this in front of other people. So, yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Walk us through how sexuality and gender is portrayed in the novel. Because it’s really interesting how Samuel sort of sets it up.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah, I think he does a really good job, kind of like you said in the beginning when we were first talking about the book, of the fact that science fiction is in conversation with the current times, of doing a, yes, yes, Delaney, Delaney, of doing a really good job of showing how, like, societal expectations and rules around gender and sexuality don’t actually make sense.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
See, I’m yours quote, not mine.

Robin Jeffrey .
so like Corgis world has a rule that it’s like homosexuality is illegal. And I think it’s like until you’re and then two men can have sexual relations. And it’s like, it’s like that rule never explained, never justified. And it’s like, yeah, because you’re right. It doesn’t make sense, but a lot of society rules that we have around sexuality and gender don’t make any sense.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
don’t they? Hmm. It’s like, yeah, really good point. and, and even in the more liberal or, you know, society that Mark lives in, there are some very interesting and strange rules around what is considered appropriate and what is considered inappropriate. And, and like I said, like the fact that like man,

or men is considered an archaic term, that no one goes by that anymore. Why would you ever use that? And even that’s like, On the one hand, it’s like, that’s great, but what if you do identify as a man? That’d be really restrictive and not cool. So he plays a lot with those ideas that, in a way, the way I read it was like, all rules are arbitrary.

You know, and that they exist because we as a society created them, but that doesn’t mean they make sense. That doesn’t mean there’s some like higher truth behind them that we all are beholden to. They just are. And because we’ve agreed to them. But if they don’t work for you, they don’t work.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
I love how you put that, that we agreed to them, you know, that there isn’t that, you know, all enforcing power, though I’m sure some folks, the MAGO folks would be like, there is a higher power. And it’s like, boy. But I, you know, it reminds me of Ursula K. Le Guin’s novel, The Left Hand of Darkness, where folks can, based off of their partner, change.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yes. Like, no.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
their gender identity to be with that particular partner. And in doing that, how Le Guin sort of begins to deconstruct these quote unquote norms and perceptions that we have around gender identity and how much we ascribe that in like, hey, you shouldn’t be doing that, you know, the, gosh, I’m blanking on his name. But anyway, the idea.

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
how she’s challenging the idea of how we approach gender identity and all the stereotypes that we put on that and what you can and you cannot do. And so I think that Delaney does a very similar job in this novel of really, I mean, and some things just seem very normalized, right, as well, where it’s like, you’re just, here we go. And.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah. Yeah, it definitely takes that that whole idea of like gender is a construct. You know, it’s very Judith Butler in that way, you know, where it’s just like, yeah, gender is a construct. Sexual desire is what it is. And we ascribe rules and regulations to it because people are messed up. It’s like, you know, because society likes to make rules. That’s what it’s for. But that doesn’t mean that they make sense.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Was there a particular chapter or passage that you found most meaningful for you that first time you were reading it?

Robin Jeffrey .
Most meaningful. You know, there are actually two that kind of stick out in my mind. The first one is when I believe Corga is still under the effects of the rat procedure or either that or he’s just reversed it. I’m going to mess up the timeline on that, but he’s experiencing like books for the first time and reading and someone has basically the way that books work in

the world of stars in my pocket is you kind of have these cues and you basically download them automatically into your brain. So it’s like either you haven’t read it and then the next minute it’s all there. And the way Delaney describes Corga experiencing the written word and especially poetry is so beautiful and

Robin Jeffrey .
Up until this point, even before the procedure, Corga had led a very deprived life. He just left a really rough life. He had not had any advantages. No one had ever helped him. He hadn’t had a chance to read or do anything.

above survive in his life. And so this experience of literature, of poetry, and how it changed him for me as a writer at that time was just like, wow, words have such power. And it’s amazing to think that even , years in the future.

you can experience that in a very bodily kind of way and have it change you for the better, even when you’re in this kind of deprived state. So that one affected me a lot as a writer. I think as a person, the scene that affected me the most is there’s, I think it’s like the first scene where we meet Mark.

they’re in this like park and they’re going through and looking for a sexual partner. and they’re just describing everything that’s happening around them and how everybody is kind of coupling up or decoupling or, and I just remember being like, this is number one, really intense. And number two, beautiful in a very kind of

visceral way and very freeing to think that there’s just a space where people can just be themselves like erotically and sensually and not have to worry about like who they’re attracted to just that they’re attracted. And that like blew my mind. That was a really big moment for me where when I read that scene, I was just like, people are just finding other people and it doesn’t matter.

Robin Jeffrey .
that they don’t know right off what their biological sex is, they are attracted to them, so they’re going to have a relationship. That’s cool. That was a huge moment for me.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
I can see why. Yeah. And walk me through that coming out to yourself process. Because I think that, you know, for everybody that’s different. I don’t want to project per se on that. So what was that like for you?

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
For me, it was very much a…

a journey of self -acceptance and of breaking down a lot of…

ideas of what should be versus what is. You know, where it’s like, well, I shouldn’t feel that way and I should be like this. It’s like, yeah, but the truth of the matter is you are like this and you have a decision to make. Are you going to hate yourself for that for forever? Or are you just going to find a way to love yourself? And I wrestled with that for a long time because

for whatever reason, generally when I find something I don’t like about myself, my gut reaction is just to be like, well, we’re just gonna change it. We’re gonna change it. But I found something, being bisexual, that I can’t change. I can’t change that, no matter how hard I work at it. And it became this thing where I was like, look.

I have all this junk in my head saying that I shouldn’t be bisexual and that this isn’t a good way to be in the world and that this is just not how people are, but it’s how I am.

Robin Jeffrey .
And I can either be like, get with the program and be okay with it and start to get comfortable with it. Or I can be miserable for forever. And I actually really remember having, oddly enough, having this conversation with myself in the shower of all places where I think all good ideas happen. and just being like, this is, which I think also was a moment of, you know, kind of vulnerability when you’re alone with your body. And there’s like, this is me. This is all of me. I’m either going to love and accept myself.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
you

Robin Jeffrey .
or not. And I’m really glad, sorry I’m getting a little choked up, I’m really glad I chose to love and accept all of me rather than not.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
What did that look like then for you? What were those actions that you were able to do in terms of nourishing yourself?

Robin Jeffrey .
A lot of it was writing, to be honest. I started writing about my feelings and my experiences. For me, when I can write about something honestly, that’s when I know I’ve accepted it.

Pretty soon after that kind of moment of coming out to myself. I wrote a piece that later ended up winning a online contest called band of red that was talking about the first time I realized I was attracted to another woman and Just writing that piece and getting that out on the paper and Just acknowledging that it’s like yeah, I saw this woman and I thought she was beautiful

and I thought she was sexy. I thought, I want to be with her.

And also writing down in that story that it was like, and I felt wrong about that, but now I feel okay. And I realize it is okay. Being able to put that into words was really powerful for me and really cathartic and nourishing, like you said.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Yeah, I love that. I love that being able to hear yourself saying the words or to see the words that you’ve written on the page. I think that that…

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
internalizes acceptance so beautifully. And you know, you see that reflected, I think, in certain types of therapies where, you know, writing is incorporated into that and storytelling is incorporated into the therapeutic process, either to release things or to, you know, just to associate yourself with those words in a positive way. You know, I think…

As I’m listening to you, I think one of the first things that I was able to do once I started, you know, loving and accepting myself was allowing myself to even go into a bookstore and stand in front of the LGBTQ section and not be glancing over my shoulder about who’s there and allowing myself to, you know, pick out a book that I want to read and not trying to hide it, you know, not buying like other things, you know, to hide it underneath that I didn’t need, you know. So I think that those words…

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
Hehehehe

J.P. Der Boghossian .
are so important and like you were saying the other the first thing that you were sharing with us about like the the the cubes right and being able to process you know an entire book instantaneously or a poem instantaneously i think that that is so transformative it’s so transformative and i love that i mean would you say that it was it was this book stars in my pocket that really allowed you to begin that writing process that writing journey for you

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah, I think so. It really, it showed me that you can be so honest about the good and the bad in a book, you know, in writing, that you can be perfectly transparent and just truthful about your experiences and about how you view the world and that it can still be beautiful and that it can be so impactful.

And this book made me want to write books like that. You know, the books, not necessarily like, you know, didn’t make me want to be Samuel R. Delaney because I recognized fairly early on that there’s only one. There’s only one of those. But it made me want to write books that other people would pick up and go, wow, this changed me. This showed me a part of myself that I needed to see.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
How do you go about doing that? You know, and I asked that as someone who is an essayist.

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
You know, and so I try to be very particular about, you know, because I want to talk about my experience as like a queer Armenian and what that is like, but also to broaden that out, you know, to say, well, yes, this is very specific to folks who identify as queer and Armenian, but then also be able to generalize that out. And so as you’re writing both of your series, like, what are those things that you’re trying to illuminate for folks about their humanity?

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
I think for me, one of the biggest things that I try to connect people with is the fact that no man is an island. That idea that it’s like, you know, we really are all in this together. And as much as people hurt each other, and as hard as it is to be with people sometimes, because it is so hard sometimes to be on this planet with other people.

we really do need each other. And when we can be there for each other and support each other and just love each other unconditionally, that is the most powerful thing in the whole world, in the whole universe. And I personally find that by getting specific with like my truths and my fears,

people can relate.

better, you know what I mean? Like, it’s almost like by looking at that grain of sand, they can see the whole universe. And because sometimes I too worry that it’s like, well, I don’t know, like, this is my truth. Maybe no one else is going to relate to it. But it’s like almost because I made it so personal, people can see themselves in it, even if they’re not, you know, something year old.

white woman living in the Pacific Northwest. It’s like, no, like that still is how I see the world and how I want to be in it. And it’s like, great. Then you get it. We’re all just folk.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
or, you know, Corga living , years in the future having undergone an undone a really radical mental process and surgery. I’d like to spend a little bit more about the idea of no person is an island. I think that’s so important to name because the overwhelming majority of us start out

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
on an island where we’re literally, we are literally the only queer person that we know or the only one that may be experiencing queer feelings or having to engage in like queer identity and thinking like, what is my connection exactly to this, you know, community? And then we have to then go out and find our, you know.

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yes.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
There’s no other option. We have to go out and find the other islands and continents in the world. So tell me a little bit more about how you approach that, because it’s such a universal experience for all of us.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah, so for me it was definitely, I think it sounds like you can relate to this, it was books. It was feeling like I was the only, exactly what you said, like I was the only person who had ever experienced being bisexual. And then reading Stars in My Pocket like Reins of Sand or any number of other.

amazing queer books that are left hand of darkness was a really great one. I loved Ursula K. Le Guin. And just reading these books that portrayed gender and sexuality in a different way made me go, okay, so this isn’t just a me experience. There are other people out there in the world, in the history of the universe who has thought like this before. And then kind of using those books as a touchstone to find other

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm.

Robin Jeffrey .
currently alive and accessible people to go like, hey, so I read Left Hand of Darkness. Did you like Left Hand of Darkness? Why did you like it? Was it because of the whole gender switching thing? Because that was pretty cool. And then kind of feeling people out that way and then going, OK, cool. OK, good. I’m in a safe space. People like this. They’re OK with the ideas. Let’s talk. And

using books and literature and film and other artistic outlets to kind of connect myself to people has really been my way of making my island chain a little stronger.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
I love that. I love how you’re putting that. Because it can be so difficult doing that. And I think how you’re laying that out there of creating that chain that it’s, you know, it’s kind of one island at a time, one step at a time that isn’t necessarily… Excuse me.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
that isn’t necessarily laid out for us. We don’t get any roadmap, and there isn’t anyone, not even necessarily parents or other family members that are ready to even, well, this is what you do. You know what I mean? This is how you learn to love and accept yourself. It can be really difficult. And I think folks will then maybe retreat back into the island. They may go sailing around and then go, where’s my quiet pride?

Robin Jeffrey .
No.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
and then come, you know, sailing back to the island and it can be very, I think that negotiation that we all go through as queer people of, you know, this island that we create that is safe for us and then also how do we then go off the island and engage with people is such an interesting dynamic that everybody defines for themselves differently. So differently.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yes!

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and it’s not a perfect process, you know, much like all kinds of, something that my therapist said to me once was like, you know, progress is not a straight line. And so many things are not, so many things aren’t straight. And including the whole kind of issue of finding your people, finding your tribe. It’s like, yeah, you might think you found somebody and then it turns out they’re maybe not the kind of person you really need in your life. And that’s okay to let that person go.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
I’ve done that a couple times where it’s like I thought I found somebody who could support me and I could be there for them and then it’s like it’s okay. But the trick is I think exactly what you said not to just retreat and go well that’s it then there’s nobody out there. I have to be alone. It’s like no you don’t. It’s just a process and it takes time and a lot of bravery.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
I think that’s important to share that with folks about you need to sometimes learn when to let some people go. You know, the acceptance for yourself does not mean convincing every single person on the planet to, you know, be an ally or an accomplice to the community. And I think that can be very, that’s a lesson I’ve had to learn over and over again that, you know.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yes.

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
It sucks if you have to get to that point. But it can be toxic and harmful for yourself if you don’t create that boundary. Or say, you know what? This has gone as far as it can go right now. And maybe we rekindle this or reconnect into the future. But for right now, this has got to stop for your own well -being. Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah.

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
Yeah, this is where it ends.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
You were saying earlier that there is only one Samuel Delaney, which is absolutely true. But I am curious, like how did you, how do you maybe see stars in my pocket showing up in both of the series, right, that you’re doing? So you were saying that you know you’re an agent, if you wanted to have themes like he did and be able to write books that people see themselves reflected in. But in both of your series, like do you see yourself?

Robin Jeffrey .
Mm -hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Referencing back to stars in my pocket and I asked that question because I find myself Returning sometimes to really important books or the books that I would say, you know If I were on this show I guess that I would talk about you know, I do find myself kind of going back to them as touchstones To kind of help me kind of sometimes sort through like any blockages that I have in my own writing So do you find yourself doing that with stars in my pocket?

Robin Jeffrey .
Absolutely, yes. Certainly the sci -fi series that I write, the Cadence -Turrim Mystery series, would not exist without this book, without Stars in My Pocket. I really latched on to that idea of the fact that humans would go out and colonize the stars and that so much would change, but so much would stay the same. And which I think Delaney really hits

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Mm -hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
really well in a lot of his sci -fi, but especially in Stars in My Pocket Like Rains of Sand, where it’s like, yeah, so much about humanity, it’s so different. We have technology we could never possibly imagine, and yet we’re still, we still have slavery. We’re still treating people like others when they’re really just ourselves. You know, humans, I always say humans be human and they be doing their thing. You know, we can’t change certain things about ourselves.

So that always shows up in my Cadenstory mystery books. But as well as kind of those themes of

of gender, of sexuality that also shows up. Kind of the whole idea of… I kind of… Sorry, let me start that over. I also took the idea of gender and sexuality as a construct and kind of broadened it out to humanity as a construct. Yeah, I have this series of beings called animinecrons, which are essentially androids. They’re like an AI race.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Ooh.

Robin Jeffrey .
And it’s this whole idea of humanity is kind of largely performative. Consciousness is performative. We’re all just reacting to things and stimuli in our brain. And why couldn’t a robot do that? And so it’s this whole conversation that they have in the books about like what makes people people. And then also kind of lengthen that out to what makes someone who presents as female present as female beyond how they act and how they present, you know, visually and verbally and all that kind of stuff.

So it’s a really fun little game that I get to play with social constructions, which is totally down to Delaney. And then in my, even in my urban fantasy book, which I think is as far away from Delaney as I can get, you know, werewolves, I don’t think Delaney ever touched on werewolves, but I still really like to play with the idea of societal structures.

I have the whole system of bitten versus born, where there are werewolves that were bitten, and then there are werewolves who were born werewolves. And there’s this whole baggage that goes along with that. And Delaney loves playing with societal rules. And I do too, where it’s like, yeah, these rules, they’re all arbitrary. They don’t mean anything, except for that we’ve all decided to buy into them, and so they mean something.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
Hmm.

Robin Jeffrey .
So what happens when certain people break those rules? I love playing with that in my books.

J.P. Der Boghossian .
I want to thank Robin for being on the podcast today.

She has an upcoming novel in The Night series coming out this November. She is also at work on the next book in the Cadence Turing Mystery Series.

Through her website robin jeffrey author dot com. There is a calendar with all of her upcoming events and courses she’s teaching. You can buy her current books and get updates on when the new ones will drop. You can also sign up for her monthly newsletter, where she not only provides insight into her writing process and her upcoming books, but she also spotlights other authors for you to be checking out and reading.

Links to all of the things in our show notes and on our website.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Well, thanks for listening today.

Our podcasts are executive produced by Jim Pounds. Accounting and creative support for our podcasts is provided by Gordy Erickson. Our associate producers are Archie Arnold, K. Jason Bryan, and David Rephan, Bob Bush, Natalie Cruz, Jonathan Fried, Paul Kaefer, Joe Perrazzo, Bill Shea, and Sean Smith.

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And until our next episode, see you queers and allies at the bookstores!