Hello!

When the adults in your life are this reckless and dangerous, what do you do?

Today we meet Rex Ogle and we’re talking about the book that saved his life: Running with Scissors by Augusten Burroughs.

Rex Ogle is an award-winning author and the writer of nearly a hundred children’s books, comics, graphic novels, and memoirs—most notably Free Lunch, which won the ALA/YALSA award for Excellence in Non-Fiction. He has written under several pseudonyms, including Trey King and Honest Lee, but is currently focused on reimagining classic literature as modern or fantastical graphic novels as REY TERCIERO, under which he penned bestselling Meg, Jo, Beth, & Amy, as well as Northranger, nominated for both a Harvey and GLAAD Media Award.

Running with Scissors is the true story of a boy whose mother (a poet with delusions of Anne Sexton) gave him away to be raised by her psychiatrist, a dead-ringer for Santa and a lunatic in the bargain. Suddenly, at age twelve, Augusten Burroughs found himself living in a dilapidated Victorian in perfect squalor. The doctor’s bizarre family, a few patients, and a pedophile living in the backyard shed completed the tableau. Here, there were no rules, there was no school. The Christmas tree stayed up until summer, and Valium was eaten like Pez. And when things got dull, there was always the vintage electroshock therapy machine under the stairs.

Connect with Rex

website: rexogle.com
instagram: @thirdrex
substack: substack.com/@thirdrex

Our Bookshop

Visit our Bookshop for  new releases, current bestsellers, banned books, critically acclaimed LGBTQ books, or peruse the books featured on our podcasts: bookshop.org/shop/thisqueerbook

To purchase Running With Scissors visit: https://bookshop.org/a/82376/9780312422271

To purchase Free Lunch visit: https://bookshop.org/a/82376/9781324016946

Become an Associate Producer!

Become an Associate Producer of our podcast through a $20/month sponsorship on Patreon! A professionally recognized credit, you can gain access to Associate Producer meetings to help guide our podcast into the future! Get started today: patreon.com/thisqueerbook

Credits

Host/Founder: J.P. Der Boghossian
Executive Producer: Jim Pounds
Associate Producers: Archie Arnold, K Jason Bryan and David Rephan, Natalie Cruz, Jonathan Fried, Paul Kaefer, Nicole Olila, Joe Perazzo, Bill Shay, and Sean Smith
Patreon Subscribers: Stephen D., Stephen Flamm, Ida Göteburg, Thomas Michna, and Gary Nygaard.
Creative and Accounting support provided by: Gordy Erickson
Music and SFX credits: visit thiqueerbook.com/music

Quatrefoil Library

Quatrefoil has created a curated lending library made up of the books featured on our podcast! If you can’t buy these books, then borrow them! Link: https://libbyapp.com/library/quatrefoil/curated-1404336/page-1

Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated by our recording platform Riverside.fm. This transcript does not include episode narration and contains the original interview between J.P. Der Boghossian and today’s guest. The time-stamps do not correspond to the released audio file and tend not to be fully generated throughout the entire interview. It is approximately 85% accurate and will include spelling and grammatical errors. For any quotation purposes, we strongly recommend referencing the audio.

J.P. Der Boghossian (00:07.886)
Okay, well, Rex, would you like to introduce yourself, starting with the, my name is, et cetera, and then whatever bio information you’d like to share.

Rex Ogle (00:13.713)
Yeah. Howdy, y ‘all. I am Rex Ogle. I am trailer trash from Texas who climbed my way tooth and nail up the ladder to become a writer. But I went to New York City. I was an editor for 15 years. I worked in Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Scholastic Little Brown. And now I write books for children or young readers, as we call them, because it’s…

all ages up through high school and they are not children, they are young adults.

J.P. Der Boghossian (00:49.646)
Right. So for, we do have some international listeners. So maybe you can unpack what trailer trash from Texas specifically means for you. Like, how do you interpret that?

Rex Ogle (00:51.089)
Thanks.

Rex Ogle (01:01.233)
So for me, I guess, you know, I was called trailer trash because I lived in a trailer when I was younger and in America, definitely in Texas, living in a trailer is a sign of poverty. It’s a sign that you are lower class. You know, eventually we moved into some crappy apartments and then got evicted from those. And then we were in government subsidized housing. So.

Yeah, I grew up with a lot of poverty and you know, I was very embarrassed about that growing up. And then eventually I was like, I’m just taking it back. So I’ve tried to take back all those things I used to be ashamed of.

J.P. Der Boghossian (01:46.094)
And if I read correctly, your first gig in New York was in turning at Marvel.

Rex Ogle (01:52.849)
It was, yeah. So this was, I mean the internet was brand new. So I sent emails which I was like, how do you send an email? But I figured it out. I tracked down the human resources and I emailed the butt. I also sent snail mail. After a few phone calls with the HR department, I found out that one of the women who worked there liked chocolate. So I sent her a box of chocolate and I was like, give me a chance.

J.P. Der Boghossian (01:54.446)
How did you score that?

Rex Ogle (02:22.097)
give me a chance. Because everyone who worked in publishing, at least in comic book publishing, were white men from Connecticut and New Jersey. And for a queer guy who is half Mexican to come up from nowhere and kind of crack open the door, get my foot in there, then not let them close it on me was very interesting.

J.P. Der Boghossian (02:44.302)
I’d say. And you were an editor there, but what were some of the characters or titles that you most enjoyed working on?

Rex Ogle (02:52.337)
I mean, here’s the thing is I grew up reading X -Men. I was introduced to comic books around sixth grade and X -Men is like my jam. It’s, you know, they’re very queer coded. They are defending a world that fears and hates them. And that’s very much how I felt growing up, secretly, because I was growing up in Texas, which was very homophobic in the late 80s, early 90s. So X -Men was my jam. That’s why I went to Marvel. I was like, I have to, you know.

work on these characters. And it was amazing. It was just a summer, but then that paved the way for me to get into DC Comics, which was another dream job.

J.P. Der Boghossian (03:32.173)
I love that. Any particular X -Men that you enjoyed writing for or editing?

Rex Ogle (03:36.593)
I mean, here’s the thing, is everyone’s like, who? Her name is Magic with a K, AKA Illyana Rasputin, the younger sister. Yes, yes. I related to her because essentially this was a little girl, age six, pulled into a demon dimension, spit back out five minutes later for our world, but seven years for her. And it’s, while it’s not explicit, it’s very clear that.

J.P. Der Boghossian (03:44.686)
Yeah, Colossus’s sister.

Rex Ogle (04:03.761)
She was abused physically, sexually, mentally by this demon named Belasco. She came back very changed, much darker. She survived a lot. But what I found so fascinating about her is when she was attacked, armor would appear on her body. She would pull a sword out of her body, her soul sword. So all her power came from within, which I just, as a young queer kid growing up in Texas, it was so nice to think that you could

Take your pain and your trauma and turn it into armor and a weapon to protect yourself.

J.P. Der Boghossian (04:40.75)
I love that. I do want to talk about your book, books, and further into the conversation, but can you tell us a little bit about Free Lunch?

Rex Ogle (04:46.545)
Yeah.

Rex Ogle (04:52.625)
Yes, Free Lunch was kind of my first book that I was forced into writing by fate. It’s about me in sixth grade dealing with poverty and domestic violence. And it’s not a book I ever wanted to write, but it is a book that after literally hundreds and hundreds of rejections from my sci -fi, fantasy, and horror books, I was like, I’m going to try something new. I’m going to do what I’ve always been terrified to do, which is talk about myself.

And now I do it a lot. It’s terrifying.

J.P. Der Boghossian (05:28.366)
So do you, free lunch came after your time at Marvel in DC, right? Yeah.

Rex Ogle (05:33.777)
Yes, yeah, I did. After 15 years in publishing. So yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian (05:41.71)
Well, congratulations on that, on all of it.

Rex Ogle (05:43.505)
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

J.P. Der Boghossian (05:46.606)
Okay, well, Rex, what is the queer book that saved your life?

Rex Ogle
I feel like there have been so many because and they’ve all been like either queer coded or just hidden But you know, I’ve got to say running with scissors Changed the way I looked at my childhood not just through I Mean Augustin burrow had a very bizarre child childhood with his mother Who you know just was a chain -smoking poet?

And then the psychiatrist that she sent him to live with, it was just such a bizarre upbringing and it made me think, maybe my childhood wasn’t so bad. And the fact that he was queer was just like icing on the cake and I realized, wow, you can be queer and survive a very strange childhood in a very unconventional way. And it made me realize, wow, like after everything I’ve been through, maybe.

maybe I can make this work. And the fact that he wrote a book and I always wanted to be a writer. So I think there were just so many levels of here’s a gay man who survived his childhood, who wrote a book and is now out in the world with this story and sharing himself. And I think there’s something beautiful, at least from my age group, being able to be out and proud and I guess be like in the public eye and not be.

J.P. Der Boghossian (06:53.07)
Wow.

Rex Ogle (07:19.153)
ashamed of it or not hide it. Cause you know, I mean, I don’t know a lot of actors in Hollywood and maybe musicians hide it so that they can continue their rise to fame. But I feel like with authors, we’re a little more brave because we get to hide behind our typewriters and now laptops, but I used to have a typewriter.

I love that and thank you for sharing it and for our audience members who haven’t read Running with Scissors yet, how would you describe it to them?

Rex Ogle
It is a memoir although You mentioned before the call that Augustin Burroughs has had to change it from a memoir to a book Which is hilarious to me, but I get it. So it’s a memoir about his very strange unconventional childhood and his relationship with his mother who was emotionally Just not I don’t think capable of being a parent

which to me rings so true from my own experience. But she’s, you know, a poet, she’s I think bisexual, and she lives to send him to live with her psychiatrist and he encounters a lot of strange characters. But yeah, just dealing with sexuality from a young age. He deals with all this stuff and eventually comes out the other side and it’s just…

It’s a beautiful story of growth and figuring out who you are and how to survive.

J.P. Der Boghossian (09:40.942)
He really, so Augustine was actually sued by one of the real life characters. He changed the names, but one of the characters sued him for defamation afterwards. And one of the part of the settlement included changing from memoir to book. And clearly, I mean, I feel clearly the mom has been going through some pretty significant behavioral health diagnoses. I think there’s like some trauma going on there. And then Augustine experiences.

some pretty traumatic things when he is at the doctor slash therapists house. The therapist kind of has his own breakdown, I guess. Is that a kind of way of saying it in the, in the book? But where I’m, where I’m going with this is that were there particular.

Rex Ogle (10:20.337)
Wow.

J.P. Der Boghossian
themes that most resonated with you? Like, was it the conditions, like the material conditions of the novel that Augustine was describing? Was it the behavioral health stuff? Was it sort of all of it matched together?

Rex Ogle
Yeah. I think there were a few things. I mean, at the time that I read it, I think, I mean, it came out around 2002. And I just remember the book cover so vividly, you know, this kid with a box on his head that said running with scissors. And I was drawn to it in the bookstore and I didn’t know anything about it. I didn’t even know that he was gay when I started reading it. So to pick it up and find out that we had such a similar.

At least we had similar themes in our childhood. So the things I think that popped out the most to me was the mentally unstable mother, because I had one of those. The fact that he was gay and had this older relationship, or a relationship with an older man who was 20 years older than him, I think resonated with me on so many levels because, I mean, sorry, this is a lot of information. Like I was molested as a kid.

And so to see that reflected in him, although he was much older, he was 13 and then the I believe it was Dr. Finch’s adopted son, his name was Neil Bookman. He was 33 and, you know, started a relationship with Burroughs when he was 13. And the weird thing is, is like at my age, I was, you know, in between 13 and 33 because I was about 21 when the book came out. And so I was reading it and it.

Reading it brings up these strange feelings as a gay man. Like I remember when I was a kid how desperately I wanted an older man to come along and just take me away from my life and save me and protect me.

I think what I was trying to express is that as a kid, I was hungry, desperately hungry for someone to let me know that what I was feeling was okay. And as I, you know, I definitely had relationships with older men. And it was confusing because like I said, I was desperate for the touch of a man because, you know, I was growing up in Texas and, you know,

My stepdad abused me and so the men in my life were not reliable. You know, my real father didn’t give me hugs. So I think I was desperate for the touch, not just of a man, but for a gay man. And like you said, they’re taking advantage in a very real way.

J.P. Der Boghossian (16:08.814)
Absolutely. You said you found the book in a bookstore and I’m curious what was it about it that first caught your eye and then what kept you going when you when you started reading it initially?

Rex Ogle
Yeah, well, so I just had a book come out called Road Home about my dad kicking me out for being gay when I was 17 and then the three months that I was homeless afterwards on the streets of New Orleans. And that was after everything I’d been through, that was like the icing on the cake. That was like, wow, this this was the last thing I needed. You know, being hungry and wanting something as simple as ice water.

I mean, now I’m like so grateful for ICE. It’s so weird to me. After surviving all that, my abuela got me off the street, got me back to Texas, helped me get back into college. She got me into Adelaide Christian University, which was not for me because of the Christian stuff. But I transferred after one semester to the University of Texas in Austin. And here I was in this new town having survived this horrible traumatic experience of

J.P. Der Boghossian
Mm -hmm.

Rex Ogle (17:20.625)
feeling desperately alone and having no family. I’m in Texas and Book People, which was the bookstore in Austin, still there and it’s such a wonderful place, became a refuge for me. I found myself there, I don’t know, three or four times a week, sometimes hanging out in the gay section, sometimes hanging out the sci -fi section, the comic books, of course, on the magazine stands.

but it just felt good to be around people in a quiet space that I didn’t have to interact with. But I did keep my eyes out for that, the gay section. And anyway, so yeah, I was there often. I would buy books once a week. And like I said, I remember seeing that cover and it just stood out amongst everything. And when I read that it was a memoir, I was like, I’ve never read a memoir before. And this guy’s life sounds like mine. So I picked it up, I read it at home. And I think I…

J.P. Der Boghossian (18:09.902)
Mm.

Rex Ogle (18:15.409)
could not put it down, I think, read it till three or four in the morning. And then the next day I was like, I’m gonna read this again, but more slowly and just digesting it and feeling all these things that resonated with me in such a way that no book had touched me before. And again, I was in a desperately scared place. I was surviving the trauma of being homeless, being gay and not being out completely, still trying to figure that out.

have this author, someone who wrote this book, be like, I’m gay and these traumatic things happen to me. And I don’t know where he is now, if he’s still depressed or dealing with trauma. But to me at the time, I was like, this man wrote a book, he’s successful, he survived, was so important to me at that age.

J.P. Der Boghossian
What did you think of Augustine’s writing style? Did you find it helped make the story more accessible for you?

Rex Ogle
I did, there was something about it like, sometimes when I read, all the time when I read stuff, I get this feeling. It’s like when I listen to music, I don’t always listen to the lyrics. In fact, most of the time I can’t understand the lyrics, so I just go with what I feel, the vibe of the song. And that’s kinda how it is with books. I think it’s so important because an author is essentially a telepath. I mean, going back to X -Men.

They are trying to convey something through words and they’re giving you what they’re trying to express a feeling. And so when I read Augustine’s writing style, it was airy and it was light and it was engaging. And yet it was dealing with these very heavy topics, which I found fascinating because I was like, here he is approaching it from a place that allows you in to his life and to his emotions and to what he was feeling.

And it’s so inviting and open. And I was just like, wow, this man’s being honest and he’s having a difficult conversation, which I personally think the world would be a better place if we all were able to have these difficult conversations. So for him to be honest like that was wow. It was wow.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Were you able to have difficult conversations with anyone after reading it, or was it more of an internal personalized journey?

Rex Ogle
My mom, for all her faults, her mental instability, the violence at home, prided herself on honesty. And she kind of instilled that in me at a young age. She’s like, why lie when the truth hurts so much more? And I was like, why would you want to hurt someone? She’s like, it’s not that you want to hurt someone. It’s that people don’t like honesty. People don’t like seeing themselves. People don’t want to look themselves in the mirror. And I didn’t really understand what that was until I was probably 21, 22.

And I realized, like, I didn’t want to tell anyone that I was homeless. Like, when I met new people, they’d be like, how did you come to Austin? And the last thing I was going to say was, my dad kicked me out for being gay. I was homeless for three months. I did things that I never thought I would do in order to survive. I was ashamed about what I did just to get a free shower or to have a bed to sleep in where I wasn’t looking over my shoulder because someone was going to try to steal my backpack.

So even though I wasn’t being honest about where I came from and what I’ve lived through, I was able to have difficult conversations with people. I wrote my dad a long letter and was like, I haven’t forgiven you yet, but I’m working at it because I don’t want to carry around this hate and this anger with me.

And it was a difficult conversation to have, which is why I did it in a letter instead of face to face. But I did the same thing with my mom. Like I wrote her a letter and I was like, I want to forgive you. I want to move past this. And I think after writing those two letters to the people who brought me into this world, but also abandoned me pretty quickly emotionally, leaving me feeling like an orphan in a very scary world enabled me to just be like, you know what?

This is how it is. This is, I’m just going to speak my truth. And as an adult, like in my thirties, especially, I was able to have those difficult conversations and relationships and with people and even stand up for myself at work, at home, with friends, with family. I was always able to step up and be like, if you want to talk about this, I am open to having this difficult conversation, but it’s up to you to really be able to engage with.

Rex Ogle
But I was ready and I think Augustine’s book showed me that. I mean, he put it out there. He showed himself to the world. And whether he flinched or not to me, he seemed like a hero.

J.P. Der Boghossian
Do you feel after reading Running with Scissors that there were ways that Augustine described his experience that you were sort of using in those letters that you sent to your parents? Like did he model language for you?

Rex Ogle
I don’t think, because in the book he’s not having those difficult conversations. I think as a kid though, you’re trying to communicate and you kind of stumble. You don’t know exactly what to say to these adults who, at the end of the day, they’re supposed to be the caretakers. They’re the ones who are supposed to teach and educate and say, I brought you into this world. This is the world. Let me help you navigate it.

And he was able to reading like how he would speak with these adults who are not adults. They were, they were the children. They were their own versions of their children. Like every one of us has this younger version of ourself who survived, you know, some trauma or some pain when they’re little and that pain resides within us. Cause the body remembers that. And I think seeing him,

being adults, addressing what he went through as a kid, told me that I could do that. And I grew up feeling afraid and alone and my parents were not loving. So to write those letters, I don’t know that I modeled it after the book, but I was inspired by the book to be brave enough to say, this is what you put me through and I think you were doing the best you could, but your best was not enough. And so I am suffering and I am enough.

dark place. And I want you to know that one day I would like to have a relationship with you, but right now I don’t know if I’m capable of that.

J.P. Der Boghossian (25:22.51)
May I ask if you do now have a relationship with your parents?

Rex Ogle (25:25.809)
You can ask. My mom is still mentally unstable. The last time I saw her, which I see her every five years, usually because my younger brother who suffered a lot of the same abuse I did has demanded apologies from her. He stopped demanding the last time he asked very pleasantly. He was like, I just need you to apologize. And she flipped the table at a Tex -Mex restaurant in Fort Worth.

and started screaming at him and then of course turned on me and you know the manager’s like we’re calling the cops and I you know I’m very calm with my parents now no matter how angry they are because I’ve survived it and I’m like I’m adult now like I refuse to engage you in in violent arguments I’m let’s have an honest calm conversation but my mom’s not capable of that.

J.P. Der Boghossian (26:03.854)
Hmm.

Rex Ogle (26:22.897)
So yeah, I call her every year on Christmas morning and she never answers. I always leave a voicemail saying I hope you’re well. I love you. I’m glad you brought me into this world. I am taking care of myself. Take care. I hope you’re doing well. It’s very quick. 30 seconds and then now she never calls me back. Although this year she did, but I wasn’t brave enough to take the call because it’s one thing for me to give the call. It’s another thing to actually hear their voices.

J.P. Der Boghossian (26:51.758)
Mm -hmm.

Rex Ogle (26:52.177)
My dad on the other hand has made, you know, I made a lot of effort for years. My sister had some kids that went to live with him and my stepmom. And while he wasn’t a great father, he was a great grandfather to them. And it was nice to witness that. But every time I went, he would get drunk and start ragging on gay people. And, you know, I was not okay with that after what I went through. And, you know, she would be like,

I’m so glad you’re not one of them femme actin’ girl faggots. And I was like, damn, like that’s me inside. Like I am very straight presenting because I had the shit kicked out of me by bullies, by my stepdad, by my entire environment being like, you can’t be gay. And now my drag is plaid shirts and trucker hats and now I look like.

J.P. Der Boghossian (27:24.59)
Mm.

J.P. Der Boghossian (27:45.518)
Hehehehehe

Rex Ogle (27:45.905)
A hot straight man that I used to see that I had crushes on at school and at truck stops. And that’s my drag. I mean, at the end of the day, this is just what makes me comfortable. And it’s probably twisted that I can’t embrace the things that I really love. Like, my God, I love Barbie doll so much as a kid. That Barbie pink, every time I see it, makes me so joyous and so happy. And I’m like…

Why don’t I own anything pink? So I would love to be, you know, I see these young kids like, my God, wearing pink and wearing crop tops and wearing dresses. And I’m like, fuck, I envy you so much. You are so beautiful and you’re living your truth. And I’m so glad that you’re able to do that. It makes me really happy.

J.P. Der Boghossian (28:16.558)
Right?

J.P. Der Boghossian (28:35.182)
I so wanted the Barbie Dream House when I was a kid. And when the movie came out last year, I was like, my first reaction was they’re making a Barbie movie. Like who is going to go see that? And then I just kind of reflected on it and I was like, wait, I want to go see that. So.

Rex Ogle (28:38.865)
Me too!

Rex Ogle (28:49.073)
and

Rex Ogle (28:53.457)
Yeah, I was there opening night.

J.P. Der Boghossian (28:57.902)
I didn’t get to it in the movie theaters. My reflecting took a while, but when it was on Macs, I was like, yeah, I want to watch this. And it was delightful. I absolutely loved it. And I’m so happy that it’s out there in the world. For those queer kids that are out there and are wrestling with similarly difficult relationships with their parents, what advice would you have for them in terms of,

Rex Ogle (29:13.137)
Me too.

J.P. Der Boghossian (29:27.886)
knowing when it’s right to begin to have these types of difficult conversations with them.

Rex Ogle (29:36.561)
It’s funny because I have friends, especially younger friends, who are like, you should come out as soon as, everyone should come out early and let people know who they are. And, you know, I’m like, I disagree because you need to feel safe before you can do that. And a lot of youth are scared of coming out and then getting cut off and, or getting booted out and having lived that, having survived that. I’m like, I don’t want anyone to go through that.

J.P. Der Boghossian (29:57.966)
Mm -hmm.

Rex Ogle (30:05.393)
So first I would tell people don’t come out until you feel safe to come out. This is your journey. You shouldn’t be comparing yourself to anyone else. You need to come out when you want to come out. No one else should force that on you. But I would say to these kids, when you’re ready to embrace yourself, I mean fully embrace yourself, love yourself.

Understand that not everyone in the world is gonna understand you but the world is changing every day and it’s it’s very cyclical there’s been different societies at different points in our history who have accepted it and not accepted it and You know the world goes round and round and you know We have rights and then we lose rights and then we make progress and then we lose progress and that’s just that’s part of the way we live and then the third thing I would say is just

there will be difficult conversations in your future and don’t get angry. Don’t take it personal, but find a way to engage the other people with kindness and compassion and treat them the way you want to be treated and just understand that you had one upbringing and they had another and that’s why you think differently and that’s okay. But if you approach it calmly, I think that you can.

have these difficult but honest conversations with people and maybe at the end of the day, change their minds and make them more tolerant.

J.P. Der Boghossian (31:38.126)
Do you think that the objective should be to get them to change their minds or to find an opportunity for the queer individual to be able to make peace with the situation? Or both?

Rex Ogle (31:52.689)
A little bit of both, yeah, because at the end of the day, I would say 90 % of the time you’re not gonna change minds. But if you can find common ground with them, I think that it can maybe alter their perspective just a little bit. It can move the needle. You know, I know when I met my stepsister’s husband,

We talked for like an hour, had some beers on the porch, you know, in rural Texas, overlooking like, you know, a truck with no wheels parked on bricks in the front yard. And he was like, you know, Kristen told me you were queer, but you know, I’ve never met a queer person before, but you don’t, you don’t seem queer. And I find that strange and weird, but you’re not so bad. And I was like, you know what, not so bad. I will take it.

J.P. Der Boghossian (32:45.966)
huh.

Rex Ogle (32:49.809)
And I think that a lot of people will find that if they sit down and have some beers and a conversation with someone in their safety zone, not necessarily yours, maybe, like I said, you can move the needle a little bit and get them to realize not that we’re normal, but that everyone is, I don’t believe in the word normal, but at the same time I’m like, we’re all normal. I mean, we’re all messed up, we’re all broken in some way. We all breathe.

J.P. Der Boghossian (33:13.902)
Mm -hmm.

Rex Ogle (33:18.033)
the same oxygen, like at the end of the day, we’re all the same. And we’re different at the same time in so many ways, but there is common ground between us.

J.P. Der Boghossian (33:28.974)
Yeah. Thank you for that. You were saying…

Wait, I wanna backtrack there.

J.P. Der Boghossian (33:40.942)
I think that’s really important, right, how you put that. And I think for me, as I’ve gone along over my own life journey, I think so many of those folks tend to think of us as not human, as subhuman. And so for me, I almost substitute human for normal in the sense that, you know, we’re finally being seen as the humans we have always been, right?

Rex Ogle (34:00.721)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian (34:07.694)
And we’re being ascribed to that. And I think that then, because human and humanity is so complicated. And when they’ve been taught for so long that we don’t matter, we don’t count, we’re not really worthy of being considered as human and regular class citizens, human citizens. I think that it is all that propaganda begins to kind of.

break away, you know, that they have this one conception of what a queer person is and they just cling to that, cling to it. But as a writer, I think also, you know better than like anybody about the value of not necessarily silence, but the blank spaces, right? What’s not included in a particular text.

And you were saying earlier that you kind of only talk to your mom for a certain, you know, like every five years or something, but you call on Christmas. Like for those queer folks that are struggling with their parents, like how do you know when to use silence? Like when is silence the words that you need to be saying essentially? Does that make sense?

Rex Ogle (35:22.705)
Yeah, it does. For me, I get, my abuela comes from Mexico. She had a large family, but then she came to the United States. She was always very alone. Her husband died in Vietnam. She raised five kids by herself, got an education, made something of her life. And she came from much more extreme poverty and situations than I did. So she always instilled in me like, you just have to…

you have to get people to accept you on their terms. And I didn’t really like that because she was a Mexican immigrant and she was, I love, sorry, I love her. She’s an angel to me. She was always there for me, but she was willing to kind of accept that people saw her as less than because of her brown skin. I mean, we went to Dublin Christian University library, which is where she went to school and graduated and got a master’s degree. And one time she took me to the library and someone’s like,

You can’t bring your grandson in here while you work. And she’s like, pardon me? And they’re like, you’re the janitor, right? And I knew it was just because she was wearing something very plain. She had brown skin. She had a very thick accent. She was an older woman. They thought she was housekeeping. and she was like, I don’t work here, but she didn’t stop to have a conversation. She didn’t want to change their mind. Whereas I’m willing to like,

J.P. Der Boghossian (36:31.15)
Mmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian (36:41.166)
Mmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian (36:49.614)
Mm -hmm.

Rex Ogle (36:51.473)
slow down when someone is like, you’re gay. I’m like, yeah, let’s have a conversation, even if it’s just a five minute conversation. I mean, these things don’t happen in Los Angeles, but they do happen in Texas. You know, I was walking down the street with my boyfriend at the time and he wanted to hold hands. I was like, no, but we were bumping shoulders. But at one point I leaned over and I kissed him on the neck and someone was like, faggot. And I was like,

Yeah, and I was like, so what made you want, what made you feel the need to say that? And they get so flustered, they’re so caught off guard, because I guess they’re thinking I’m just going to back down or I’m going to cower. And I’m like, no, let’s have a conversation. Which is weird to them. And I don’t suggest everyone do this in rural Texas. I’ve been beaten up plenty of times. But sometimes it’s good to try to engage the enemy and be like,

J.P. Der Boghossian (37:24.75)
Hahaha.

J.P. Der Boghossian (37:44.846)
Rex Ogle (37:51.377)
Let’s have a talk.

J.P. Der Boghossian (37:54.51)
Mm -hmm.

Rex Ogle (37:55.729)
But maybe that’s just me being a Leo and also being a writer and being like, let’s, yeah, let’s have a conversation. Let’s put, let’s put these feelings into words and see if we can understand each other.

J.P. Der Boghossian (38:09.774)
Well, speaking of your writing, that was a great segue to my next question, which is you had said that you had been pitching a number of books, but Free Lunch ended up being the book that you didn’t want to write and the one that was accepted. So can you walk me through that process? Why did that be the book that you didn’t want to write?

Rex Ogle (38:36.977)
Well, to be fair, I moved to New York. I was like, I’m gonna write the X -Men. When I was younger, I was like, I’m gonna write Chronicles of Narnia. And then in high school, I was like, I’m gonna write Interview with the Vampire. And then I moved to New York. I wanted to write X -Men, but I also wanted to write novels. It was all sci -fi, fantasy. Like I said, I didn’t wanna write Free Lunch, but finally an editor was like, you obviously know how to put together a plot, dialogue, character.

He’s like, but where’s the emotion? Where’s you in this? And I was like, I don’t want to talk about me. And he’s like, maybe as an exercise, you should write a story about your childhood. So that’s when I wrote Free Lunch. And it was funny because I took it out to publishers and it was rejected across the board. Yeah. And no one wanted it. Everyone’s like, this is too dark. Kids can’t read this. And I was like, kids are living through this stuff every day. And they’re like, yeah, but they don’t want to read about it.

So it sat on the shelf for five years until I wrote a Huffington Post article about my dad kicking me out for being gay. And this publisher, Simon Bouton at Norton for Young Readers was like, look, Norton Books, which is an amazing publisher, is starting a young adult, or a young reader’s imprint, and I want you to tell the story of your dad kicking you out for being gay. And I said, absolutely not. But I do have this book, Free Lunch, and I gave it to him and he loved it. And he…

J.P. Der Boghossian (39:57.934)
Mm -hmm.

Rex Ogle (40:03.825)
published it and did well with libraries and educators and kids. And he’s whittled me down until I wrote the story of me being homeless. But it was a process, like I said, rejections across the board. But I guess me coming from where I came from and fighting my way up the ladder, I was like, the worst thing they can do is say no. And for every 499 nos, I get one yes and

I’ll take it. And it’s funny because the first books I wrote were all straight characters and slowly I’ve made headway into writing about my gay experience and writing gay characters in my fiction. And it’s kind of been a revelation. Like I, my, my journey as a writer has reflected my life as a queer man in that I started out hiding.

and slowly I came out and it’s freeing. It’s really nice to be able to be writing the stories that I wanted to read as a kid and be like, here’s that really poor half Mexican queer kid who is scared to come out and, but finds strength in it eventually and finds found family and finds that it’s okay to have unconventional relationships with other people. Because at the end of the day, love transcends gender.

in my opinion. I’ve just never understood that binary. Yeah, I’ve just never understood it.

J.P. Der Boghossian (41:40.718)
Did you find Augustine’s either writing style or how he put together Running with Scissors as a model or as inspiration for how you were going about writing your book or did you kind of just feel like you were doing your own thing?

Rex Ogle (41:57.777)
I think in reading it, I admired him so much. But I was never, at the time I was like, I’m not brave enough to write my story. So there was a profound respect that I had for him. But I will say that, you know, I was reading a lot of David Sedaris, Augustin Burroughs and Chuck Polonek at the time. And I didn’t know that Chuck was gay. But it was funny because I looked back at my childhood.

And we’re like, what are the books that I loved growing up? And I found like interview, sorry, not interview, interview with the vampire when I was a teenager, but when I was a kid, Where the Wild Things Are by Maurice Sendak. And so when I learned he was gay, I was like, what is with me and all these authors that either are not out or their stories are queer coded? But yeah, I guess they all kind of influenced me to tell these magical fantastical stories, which are,

essentially metaphors. And sometimes they were assumed, like reading the X -Men, Chris Claremont certainly wasn’t gay. Or you know what, I take that back. I don’t know if he was gay, but I know he had a thing for women and bondage. Leather, S I mean the Dark Phoenix Saga, the Hellfire Club, it’s all very unconventional, very subversive, very dark, which I was drawn to. But Augustin Burroughs running with scissors was the first time I read words.

with an out gay man and a story about a young queer kid. And that changed my life. I was like, wow, I didn’t know that you were allowed to write these books. I didn’t know that these books existed. So to me, that was a revelation.

J.P. Der Boghossian (43:43.342)
Tell us about your writing today and your projects that you’re working on.

Rex Ogle (43:46.829)
So when I turned 40, my husband was like, I want to move to LA. I’d been in New York for 15 years and I could take it or leave it, but I didn’t know where to go after that because I wasn’t sure if Texas was the answer. And he’s like, let’s move to Los Angeles. I love California. Let’s go there. And I was like, OK, let’s give it a shot. But I have now, my goal is always once you save up one year salary, you can quit whatever job you have and you can write for one year.

so finally at the age of 40, I had saved up a year salary and I was like, okay, I’m taking the year off. I’m just going to write. and for the last six years, I have written my ass off. I have 12 books that are published now under my name and the pen name Ray Tersiero under which I take classics like little women and Anne of Green Gables and Jane Austen’s Northanger Abbey. And I make them modern.

and I make them queer and they’re all graphic novels. So they are the books that I wanted to read as a kid because they’re comics, they’re queer, they’re modern, they’re relatable. And it’s, I have so many of those planned. So I have 12 published, I have 12 under contract and in 2024 I pitched like eight more books to various publishers. And I’m just really enjoying finally writing.

these books and I mean yeah some of them deal with heavy topics like I think my next three one deals with growing up surrounded by AIDS thinking that I had AIDS when I was seven years old because I was molested by a man and you know I have another book about guns in America which I think is a very important pressing topic I have another one about my best friend being a drug dealer in high school

and me driving him around. But these are all fictionalized, because I’m done with memoirs for a long while. Yeah, fiction for me is the way to go. But again, like, you know, I also have like a middle grade graphic novel coming out called Bubblegum Coven, which is essentially X -Men, but they’re little witches and it’s four girls and this cute little gay boy. And like I said, I mean, like I see the artwork that’s being done by Matilda Mai and I’m like,

Rex Ogle (46:10.993)
It makes me so happy and I have a trilogy with Scholastic. The first one’s about getting glasses. The next one’s about cult four eyes. The second one’s pizza face about going to puberty. And that sixth grade, seventh grade, and then the eighth grade is weirdo about me figuring out that I’m gay and kind of telling people for the first time. And the artist, Dave Velezza, draws it and the illustrations are gorgeous and they’re beautiful. And it’s like, he’s gay. So it’s like, we’re having this gay experience where we’re reliving our childhoods.

tell these stories and it’s just great because I feel like the little kid inside of me, the kid who I’m always trying to take care of, I’m like I’m finally taking care of him. I’m giving him the books that he wanted and to be honest I wish I could go back in time and give 13 year old Augustin Burroughs my books and be like one day you and I will write books that will take care of each other.

His book took care of me and I hope my books would help his little 13 year old boy know that one day everything’s gonna be okay.

J.P. Der Boghossian (47:22.638)
That’s amazing. I’m gonna leave it right there. That was fantastic. Thank you for that. My final question is what’s next in life for Rex?

Rex Ogle (47:37.009)
I mean, I’m going to be writing until they pried my laptop out of my cold dead fingers. And then hopefully I’ll be downloaded into the robot internet AI universe. And then I can keep writing stories. But what’s next for me, you know, I’ve had this long journey of trying to find happiness and it’s, it’s really weird. I feel like in the last year I finally been like, this is what it’s like to be happy. And it’s very interesting. And I really just.

I want people to reach out to me and talk to me and I want to share with them like, you will be happy one day. You are not alone. You will get to a better place. And I don’t know. I’ve never wanted to, I’ve always just wanted to hide behind my laptop and write. And now that I’ve started connecting with kids at school visits and stuff, it’s, that’s changed my life too. And that’s, I guess, I don’t know. I want to be a vehicle to help other people find the joy that has taken me 45 years to find.