Hello!

This is a level of “relate” that I hadn’t read in other books.

Today we meet René Zadoorian and we’re talking about the queer book that saved his life: I Will Greet The Sun Again by Khashayar J. Khabushani. And Khashayar joins us for the conversation!

René Zadoorian, is an Armenian writer with a degree in creative writing from California State University, Northridge. He was born in Tehran, Iran, and now resides in Los Angeles. He is a reader for Fahmidan and Orca, A Literary Journal. His short stories and film photography have been published in various magazines including WireWorm, Fruitslice, and elsewhere.

Khashayar J. Khabushani spent time in Iran during his childhood before returning to Los Angeles. He studied philosophy at California State University, Northridge and completed his MFA at Columbia University. This is his first novel.

A stunning, tender novel of identity and belonging, I Will Greet the Sun Again tells the story of a young man lost in his own family, his own country, and his own skin. Staring down the brutality of being a queer kid and a Muslim in America, Khashayar J. Khabushani transforms personal and national pain into an unforgettable and beautifully rendered exploration of youth, love, family–and the stories that make us who we are.

Connect with René

website: rene-writes.com
instagram: @lammpshade

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Host/Founder: J.P. Der Boghossian
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Transcript

This transcript is auto-generated by our recording platform Riverside.fm. This transcript may not include episode narration and contains the original interview between J.P. Der Boghossian and today’s guests. Any time-stamps do not correspond to the released audio file and tend not to be fully generated throughout the entire interview. It is approximately 85% accurate and will include spelling and grammatical errors. For any quotation purposes, we strongly recommend referencing the audio.

J.P. Der Boghossian (00:07.816)
Okay, Renee, would you like to start by introducing yourself?

René Zadoorian (00:15.987)
Cool. So my name is Renez Adryan. My pronouns are he, him. I just graduated from California State University, Northridge, with my degree in creative writing. And yeah, I currently live in LA. I’m a reader for three magazines, reader slash editor, and they’re called Orca, Fab Me Dan, and Fruit Slice. And Fruit Slice is exclusively queer.

magazine which I think is really cool. And yeah, I work at a bookstore while I wait for MFA applications to open up. But yeah, that’s pretty much me. I’m a writer.

J.P. Der Boghossian (00:58.354)
And you’ve also published a number of short stories as well.

René Zadoorian (01:01.735)
Yes, yes I have. Most recently, again, in Fruit Slice, which was actually a story that I tie heavily to this, not heavily, but it’s a story that I connect with this book because there is a chapter of this book, well, a section of this book called American Boys, and I kind of took inspiration from that to write a little short story about

queer Armenian and Persian Armenian identity. So that was pretty cool.

J.P. Der Boghossian (01:40.182)
Wonderful. Thank you. And Khash, would you like to introduce yourself?

Khash (01:46.67)
My name is Khash. I live here in New York City at the moment. I moved here in 2018. And then after or during the pandemic, things got very difficult. sort of tried to create a different lifestyle and pace back in California where I’m originally from and just

You know, there’s a reason New York is New York. So it’s been really nice being back here. Especially this is where I came for my MFA. And it’s also where I wrote the manuscript of this novel. I will greet the sun again. So yeah, it’s felt like a homecoming. And also I just have to say, Renee, that was such a… I have my camera off right now for internet sake and quality. And it’s kind of a good thing because it’s getting teary eyed and…

I’m so humble and yeah, so moved to be here and JP, thank you for organizing this and it’s really looking forward to the conversation.

J.P. Der Boghossian (02:55.638)
Definitely. Do you want to share a little bit about your writing?

Khash (03:01.59)
I feel Renee is so much more impressive. can listen to Rene talk about their writing. I, know, Renee mentioned publishing a few short stories and for me, I was just so hungry to write this sort book -length story. And when I say that, it’s this novel, it’s about a young boy named Kay who’s growing up in the San Fernando Valley.

has two older brothers and is queer and loves basketball. And this all takes place in the 90s, early 2000s. I know it’s not often said that Los Angeles can have its deal of homophobia, but definitely was the experience for Kay and also for me. And I think when I look at this book, the most…

Miraculous thing about it for me is that it allowed me to inhabit queerness In a fictional sense because for me growing up I didn’t have that Courage to be out. I didn’t have the language for it There was so much violence around Around queerness Both stuff that I experienced and also things that I perpetuated myself. So it’s just

a true, not just dream come true, but also sort of a life saving endeavor to get to know this part of my identity through writing. And it’s, yeah, it’s allowed me to then write the next thing. I think I had to write this in order to move on to the next thing.

René Zadoorian (04:52.563)
So there will be a next thing. Sorry, there will be a next thing is what I’m hearing.

J.P. Der Boghossian (04:52.758)
Thank you for that.

Khash (04:56.846)
Well, there has to be right I mean language leaves us I think all three of us can can can probably relate to that and The next thing sort of changes each day in each moment But I one thing for sure is I keep writing What what takes shape or what’s the story or what genre that’s still I’m still figuring that out and trying to just listen to the muses

J.P. Der Boghossian (05:24.79)
That’s great. Thank you for that. This is going to be a fun conversation.

We turn to books for answers a lot of times, and I’m curious, before reading today’s book, was there a particular question that you found yourself asking that you found the answers for in the novel?

René Zadoorian (05:47.055)
I my main reason for picking up this book. So is it okay if I explain how I found out about it?

Khash (05:56.354)
please, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was gonna talk about Martin in my previous answer.

René Zadoorian (06:00.465)
you

J.P. Der Boghossian (06:00.566)
Well, wait. Okay, so let’s do that. I’m kind of jumping ahead of myself here. So let’s do that, but may I ask first? So, Renee, what is the queer book that saved your life?

René Zadoorian (06:12.509)
So the queer book that saved my life is I Will Greet the Sun Again by Kash J. Kabushani right here.

you can’t even see my…

J.P. Der Boghossian (06:25.492)
No, it’s good. We can see you.

Khash (06:26.346)
I can, we can see you, we can see you. Thanks for holding it up.

René Zadoorian (06:29.937)
Yes, I’m so, yeah, I’ve never done this before, so you can tell.

Khash (06:35.448)
This will be one of many coming your way, Renee, trust me.

René Zadoorian (06:37.971)
Thank you. I would just say the title, Okay. Yeah. So it’s, will greet the sun again by Kashjay Kabhushani. And it was, I believe released in 2013, right?

J.P. Der Boghossian (06:38.71)
Mm -hmm.

René Zadoorian (06:57.619)
my god, 2023, yes. But yeah, I’ve found out about it through, since we both went to California State University in Northridge at different times, we had the pleasure of coming across a professor named Martin Poussin, who is actually named, before the book starts, in the little section where it was.

written like this book was possible because of these people and Martin Poussin was named. And I found out about it because I took a class with Martin Poussin and on the first day he brought a bunch of novels from his former students and this hadn’t been released yet but he had I believe an advanced copy or he was speaking about it and he said, you know,

This is a book with queer themes and the author was in your seats at one point and he mentioned Iran and immediately I was like, queer in Iran, I have to read this right now. So I of course went to the book signing at Skylight Books in Los Feliz on I believe August 4th of 2023. It was a very special day.

Khash (08:11.64)
you

J.P. Der Boghossian (08:24.532)
You remember the date?

René Zadoorian (08:25.907)
It was a very special day. So yeah, it was around that time period.

Khash (08:30.223)
Tell them why it was particularly special. What did you go to afterwards, Rene?

René Zadoorian (08:34.833)
Yeah. Afterwards, so Martin was like, after the signing, there’s a local bar, there’s a local gay bar called Akbar in Silver Lake. And I had taken the guy that I was speaking to. He wasn’t my boyfriend yet at the time. I had asked him, can you come to the signing with me? He had no like he doesn’t read. He’s not in the literary world. And he was like, yeah, sure, I’ll come.

you know, that stage of a relationship where you’re just doing everything together. And yeah, he came, waited in line with me and everything. And then afterwards we went to Akbar and we made out. that was… And it was funny because Martin was looking, yeah, Martin was looking for me at one point. And yeah, it was just a very eventful night.

Khash (09:20.588)
I love that so much

René Zadoorian (09:33.255)
but I can tie that all back to this book and it being published.

Khash (09:37.198)
you

J.P. Der Boghossian (09:42.895)
So, Kosh, give us a description of what folks can expect when they turn to page one of your…

Khash (09:50.67)
It, you can expect, as Renee beautifully articulated, very, very loud themes coming across in a very quiet way is how I think about it. Especially the more, I think, distance I get from the book, the more I’m able to see it as just that, as a book of its own that’s out there in the world. And of course I recognize that I wrote it and I remember the process, but what’s been neat is I’ve been able to appreciate it.

for what it is outside of myself. And when I opened it to page one, I’m surprised by how quiet and straightforward and without, yeah, there’s, I I love flowery language. I love writing in a sophisticated way. I using adjectives and long sentences and semi -colons, but this is written, the story is being told through a young person’s point of view and.

And therefore, I relied on the diction that a young person would use. so it’s, I know one reviewer, another fellow Iranian, Portsy Sokhakpour, she mentioned how there’s very little, if any, metaphor in simile. And so I think to go back to the question of what to expect is, you can expect these big themes of queerness and home and…

and brotherhood and basketball and love and violence, masculinity, femininity, poetry. And it’s all sort of delivered in this very earnest, tender way through Kay, through the narrator.

J.P. Der Boghossian (11:38.134)
Beautiful, thank you. As you were saying that I could see Renée opening to specific pages. Renée, so you’re in this course and you find out the theme of the book and the identities of the writers and the characters within the book. What was your first take as you were reading it? What was coming up for you?

René Zadoorian (11:44.103)
Yes.

René Zadoorian (12:02.413)
I, so when I first read it, I took note of every little time that I culturally connected to this book. And so I’m Armenian, but I was born in Tehran. So my family is Barskaha and a lot of, feel like Persian culture carries on even after you’ve immigrated here. And this is,

like the first book that I read where I was like, there’s so much in this that I just immediately can picture and know what the author is talking about. know, like, even though, let’s say, the smell of something isn’t mentioned, I know exactly how that smells because it’s something from real life. And I take a note of pretty much every time that I had felt connected to that. And it’s nothing like even

big. It’s just, you know, when the book is opening up, he’s describing where he’s living and there’s the sound of like the leaf blower and the gray grass and the emphasis on how in the valley there are no, like you don’t really see stars. Whereas in other writing, it’s like the starry night. And I catch myself putting that in my writing sometimes too, where it’s like,

There’s no stars here. If you’re lucky, maybe two. But besides that, like he describes his mother’s breakfast, which is like bad, bad, and like panier and, you know, she’s having chai and already I can like smell that like the cheese.

J.P. Der Boghossian (13:57.238)
was going say for folks who aren’t Armenian or Iranian, what is that breakfast?

René Zadoorian (14:02.963)
So bad body is a special type of bread. And it’s, how would I describe bad body?

Khash (14:12.994)
I would say it rises similarly to what folks would think of as like, let’s say a focaccia minus the sort of olive oil and sea salt. I’m also comparing it to that because I just had focaccia from the bakery that I worked at. But it has that same fluffiness and that same crisp on the outside and then it’s often made with sesame and then paneer being cheese.

René Zadoorian (14:27.507)
You

Khash (14:39.078)
Yeah, Rene was describing a somewhat traditional breakfast with tea and walnuts and honey and cheese and this special kind of bread There’s I would say there’s Babari and then sangak and sangak is made with in a stone oven and I remember I I never it never occurred to me that because sang means means actually it literally means stone I remember being in Iran and going to go get sangak and

The bakers are pulling it out and there are stones dropping from the bread. It’s like, they actually fucking bake with stones. It’s so cool. It’s so cool. So good. my God. Love bread.

René Zadoorian (15:14.971)
I did not know that at all.

René Zadoorian (15:23.603)
I’ll leave it with nothing on it. And my dad’s like, you have to put something in there. And I was like, no.

Khash (15:29.003)
You

René Zadoorian (15:33.331)
But in addition to just the breakfast stuff, obviously there’s the LA River that is mentioned. I took like notes and notes over here. But yeah, there’s just so much within the novel that is small details that I think the Six Flags, like they took me to grad.

to Six Flags after my eighth grade graduation. And I’m like, my God, this kid’s graduating eighth grade and he’s going to Six Flags. I feel like it’s very culturally valley LA area. that’s what, sorry, I forgot your original question, but that was what I really was drawn to about the book was these little references that I was picking up on that in other books I haven’t before.

J.P. Der Boghossian (16:26.41)
We get into a lot on this podcast about the power of representation and seeing ourselves within books. Why was that important, do you think, for you at the time that you were reading it to see all those little details? What did that mean to you? Especially not having read that before in any other books that you had been reading.

René Zadoorian (16:42.567)
I think.

René Zadoorian (16:47.879)
Yeah, so I think it just is, it kind of serves as like proof that, and it sounds so cliche, but genuinely it’s like kind of proof that like, okay, you’re not the only person that’s going through it. And there is somebody who not only went through it, but wrote an entire novel and published that novel. And now there’s so many people who are able to read that novel. So I think that in addition to just, you know, I can relate to it. It was just like, I can relate.

that this is like a level of relate that you might not see in other books. I know that there is sometimes like a, I was arguing with one of my professors about relatability and he said like, relatability is icky. Like you don’t need to go into a book wanting to relate. And I understand that to an extent.

But I also was telling him, like, there are certain things that relatability can really help with. And it’s stuff like, you know, putting queer and Persian together. That’s not usually seen. And when you do see that, you’re like, I relate. And it makes you realize, OK, that’s fine. So I think especially with, like, Kosh was mentioning earlier, the LA is usually seen as like,

homophobia, but whenever you are within certain, not even areas, but if you are with certain people in LA, it’s still very much homophobic. Like Glendale, for example, it’s very predominantly like, like Glendale is Armenian central. And that’s where I grew up. And it was definitely not like, just because you’re in the Southern California area, you know, it’s all accepting and whatnot. So yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian (18:39.124)
I went to a theater academy in Los Angeles and you’d think that would have been super queer and it was not. was very homophobic. In the sense that nobody felt comfortable to come out or wanted to come out because you would have been typecast. So it was automatically invalidating your identity as a negative. And so then that just cast this pall across the entire academy and it was a thing.

Khash (18:45.374)
Wow, wow.

Khash (18:54.318)
Hmm.

René Zadoorian (19:01.619)
Mm

J.P. Der Boghossian (19:04.15)
Where I’m going with that is that yes, I only lived in LA for three years and there was a lot of pockets of homophobia, even in places that you wouldn’t even realize or think that there would be that. Renée, what was coming up for you then in terms of were there new things that you felt you were able to do or think about after reading this novel?

René Zadoorian (19:29.713)
Well, so going back to Martin, one of the advices that he had given me and my friends one day when we were in his office hours, which is like a beautifully decorated office. It’s like the nicest office I’ve seen, which is very on brand for a gay professor. Like there’s like David Bower, you know, there’s so much going on, but he was saying how to avoid reading the same day that you write. Now I could be bludgeoning this a little bit, but

what I got from that was like don’t read and then write right after because you’ll subconsciously try to mimic what you’re reading. And I kind of see where he’s coming from with that. But one thing that I definitely, after reading this novel, I didn’t write this story the same day. I wrote the story I was talking about earlier about a year later.

J.P. Der Boghossian (20:06.634)
René Zadoorian (20:26.887)
But I think I needed a novel like this to read for me to be like, okay, this is okay to write about. And not that it wasn’t okay prior, but it’s just like, now that you’ve seen it, you’re more willing to do it yourself in a way. So I think that reading this definitely gave me the push to write about more cultural things.

about how Armenian and Persian identity can tie into queerness because so often we see that those two are separated. Even on Twitter, if you have an Armenian flag and a gay flag and beef goes down, they’re like, take the Armenian flag out of your bio. And it’s like, okay, calm down. But yeah, I think it just really gave me the push to…

J.P. Der Boghossian (21:10.216)
Mm -hmm.

René Zadoorian (21:26.255)
know, tell stories that do have both that culture and that identity intertwined. And that was really important for me. So.

J.P. Der Boghossian (21:36.436)
What is the title of the story that you wrote?

René Zadoorian (21:40.285)
So the title, as I mentioned, it was the title of one of the sections in this book, which is called American Boys. And the story I wrote was a bit of a coming of age -ish of these Persian -Armenian kids kind of coming to terms with being queer. And it’s only like a five page story. But as I was writing it, I couldn’t figure out a title.

And I was like, well, this section of this book that really helped push me to write about these things is called American Boys. And it’s a story about these boys trying to fit into this American way, but they’re just obviously not as American as they would wish to be. And so I titled it American Boys after that section because I thought it was fitting and also kind of like a

As a writer, I should know the word, but I don’t know the word.

I’ll figure out the word. But it was kind of like, yeah, I’m not even going to try. You will be waiting here all day for me.

Khash (22:59.342)
You’re making hand gestures or your body language. I can understand what you’re saying through your body language. So we’re good.

J.P. Der Boghossian (23:03.338)
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian (23:15.702)
Well, Kashk, would you like to share a little bit about where the novel came from? What got you started writing it?

Khash (23:22.398)
It’s so neat listening to Renee because it might, I this, I know people have said this before, but when you, for me, when I set out to write the book, it was for the very reason that Renee spoke to, being able to see yourself. And when I set out to write it, maybe I just didn’t read widely enough, but I…

I didn’t, maybe I didn’t read widely enough and also I was so certain that my experience was a singular experience and that nobody else had gone through what I had gone through and wanted to write about it because I wanted to read about it. And it’s just so cool that taking on that endeavor for myself also

not only paid off for me, because now I get to have that story, but that it also reached persons like Rene and that he was able to relate to it so much and see himself. I guess that’s the beauty and the power of literature and of storytelling. And I think I’ll probably attempt to make sense of my childhood and adolescence and even young adulthood for the rest of my life.

Lord knows it’s all I talk about in therapy, know, six, seven, eight years later. And so for me, it was just this kind of being haunted by, especially as I mentioned earlier, because I was so in the closet, not just with queer identity, but Iranian identity. I had legally changed my name when I was…

but a sophomore in high school, so ashamed of Chachayar. I never, I didn’t really, I mean, here and there, had a really good friend who was quite a voracious reader and every once in while he would pass on something to me and I would be able to sit and focus long enough to read it, but didn’t really read or write. So.

Khash (25:45.038)
I sort of think of myself of being in the closet as a writer as well. It all sort of culminated when I moved to New York when I was 26, know, coming out with my sexuality, with my name, and then of course with this desire to want to write. I had studied philosophy undergrad and so I think that was a gesture toward writing and reading.

But then, with the masters, I ended up doing it in creative writing. So, yeah, I think it was just, writing this gave me a chance to imagine particularly, you know, the queer elements and then also, you know, when part of the story takes place in Iran and when the boys come back, the father stays behind and he’s really…

It was really meaningful to get to envision a life where the father isn’t hovering over the boys and they get to sort of explore their identities without his presence, without his violent presence, I should say.

J.P. Der Boghossian (26:54.048)
You were using the word singular experience. How was that singular for you?

Khash (27:02.412)
was as they say even the six -flags thing like you know my mom was a single mom and yeah we lived in a very very small apartment but for special occasions she would you know put together enough money to to take us all to six flags for instance and you know just I vividly remember even being there but we you know it’s like she had enough to get the tickets but not enough to buy

you know, the mediocre, expensive ass amusement park food. And so she would make these Persian sandwiches, know, these mortadella sandwiches that were so gross. those all year, the soggy sandwiches. and I even remember, I would just have these out of body experiences where even as a kid, you know, eight, 10, 12 years old, I would be having these experiences and thinking to myself, nobody else in the world is having in part because

René Zadoorian (27:39.345)
the soggy sandwiches.

Khash (27:58.09)
In my immediate environment, like you’re seeing all these kids, you know, let’s say a lot of them are American kids, strictly American kids, white Americans, and they’re like standing in line for their chicken tenders and burgers and all that. you know, eating ice cream cones are like, my God, the fucking funnel cakes, like this dessert that they just like, it was so, it was torturous leaving the park and smelling that. And, it makes me want to fucking cry. It was just like, why can’t we?

René Zadoorian (28:15.317)
my god.

Khash (28:27.79)
Why can’t we have that? Everybody else is lining up for it. And, you know, why can’t you have it? Because it’s $30 for, you know, freaking dessert. And my mom is a single mom. But, you know, stuff like that or living in a complex where there are Chinese Americans, Mexican Americans, Black Americans, Iranian Americans, just such a diverse cast of people. I think although I’ve, continue to live in, you know, for years, I continued to live in LA and of course living in…

J.P. Der Boghossian (28:30.85)
Mm

Khash (28:57.016)
New York is very diverse, it’s nothing like, you know, waking up and literally like you could travel to a different country depending on whether you go down the left side of the hallway or the right side of the hallway and like the smells of people’s different apartments and the dialects and languages. And I, I think I’ll be attempting to write about that for the rest of my life because you can’t really, I don’t know if anybody can ever fully capture.

what it’s actually like, the magic of it and the heartbreak of it and the horror of it. But we try, you know, we try to.

J.P. Der Boghossian (29:29.174)
Hmm.

J.P. Der Boghossian (29:34.998)
Did you know queer people growing up?

Khash (29:39.372)
Well, statistically, I did, right? Were they out? No. You had a shit ton of queer people. But out queer folks? No, no. By the time I got to high school, was one friend of mine who was, God, even, it’s that weird LA thing where other people label you before you have the chance to identify yourself.

J.P. Der Boghossian (30:05.536)
Mm -hmm.

Khash (30:08.119)
It wouldn’t even be fair to say that knew that anybody, nobody ever confided in me about being out or being queer.

René Zadoorian (30:17.523)
It’s definitely interesting because I knew people who were queer a bit. in middle school, was becoming like, I went to middle school around 2012 to 2015 and media was changing, I feel like at that time.

J.P. Der Boghossian (30:17.546)
Renee, how about for you?

René Zadoorian (30:46.413)
And I did know queer people in media. And it wasn’t even explicitly queer. was like Teen Wolf, where they would ship the Derek Hale and Stiles, which are these two guy characters. And one of them was a werewolf. And the fans would ship. And then I knew about that. And I was like, I like that a lot. But in terms of just real life, I think, again,

Khash (31:09.666)
Hmm.

René Zadoorian (31:16.179)
it was just mostly media. Like Adam Lambert came out and I remember like a conversation between my cousins that was like, well, I don’t care if he’s gay, but you know, just don’t, you know, keep it to yourself and stuff like hearing those kinds of conversations. In high school, it was a bit different because there were a few people who came out before I had and, you know, they were in relationships and

J.P. Der Boghossian (31:31.904)
Hmm.

René Zadoorian (31:46.745)
Again, this was Glendale High School, so mostly Armenian, a lot of Armenians, a lot of Mexicans, and there is, you know, knowing that there’s this one or two lesbian couples. You know, they didn’t get bothered all that much from my knowledge, but then if you were a gay, you know, two guys, it was a different story, which is not to say that they didn’t experience homophobia. I just think…

that guys were more comfortable being mean to other guys. And all that to tie into this book is there’s these sections where Johnny is, Johnny being one of the characters that Kay has been friends with from his apartment complex. And as he’s growing up, he sees attraction towards him. And there’s like little

scenes where it’s like Johnny’s like they’re touching shoulders or they’re touching like their legs in the pool. And you know, Johnny is I feel like also questioning himself, but we don’t really get an answer in a way from him. So I don’t think we ever really know what if he comes to accept his identity, if he does anything about it.

And.

Where was I going with that? that is to say in high school was when I started experiencing these things where I would be with a guy and we would be friends, like very close friends. And then it would be like, like little touches, but very deliberate. Like even I remember sitting in cooking class and like, like just touching and like doing it very deliberately. But then the people being like, but like I’m

René Zadoorian (33:47.473)
I’m straight. And I was like, OK. So there were queer people growing up to answer your question. But even up until high school, was very much people were very closeted still. And it was a mental college where it just kind of became like an open door to kind of, you can do go explore.

J.P. Der Boghossian (33:50.229)
Mm -hmm.

René Zadoorian (34:14.909)
Basically, don’t tell people about it, but go explore. So, yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian (34:22.612)
I guess I’m curious for both of you as you’re both writers, maybe, Kash, I’ll start with you with this question of how did you go about representing an individual having to navigate these competing identities and also notions of queerness, particularly as queerness tends to be considered an American identity?

and that it’s white Americans who have come up with what it is and how to be it. How are you wanting to represent that through your story and through your main character?

Khash (35:04.59)
It’s a really good, it’s a really, feels like a very true insight. And I think it became, it’s really obvious or pretty simple to lean into the, especially when we’re talking about same -sex attraction. Cause I, when I was thinking about my time in Iran or even within certain Iranian communities,

it to me as a kid felt very at times homoerotic and so it was just kind of leaning into what’s already there even though these are let’s say yeah people who purport to be straight and live their entire lives as a straight man or straight women and and and I think just the affection of the culture the warmth of it

And then, and then, yeah, while also keeping in mind, not just the homophobia, but especially in the religious context, the very real danger and, and quote unquote, the sin of it. But it felt, yeah, it felt really liberating to, to embrace queerness without necessarily having to reject the other.

identities. I mean, I think there’s, there’s never a fixed state. can, it’s fluid. And I think for Kay, that was the case. And certainly for me, there, there have been times where I’ve accepted one identity of mine while rejected, even like the other few weeks where we had a book event and masculinity was one, you know, this, this theme that came up and I was, I was describing how I even for

I feel like the last several years spent a lot of time rejecting masculinity. It’s only until recent that I realized, you can embrace queerness and spirituality and religion and masculinity if that’s what you want. There’s no formula to it. And that’s been really liberating to, you know, I grew up playing basketball and I mentioned that because even to this day when I go play, it’s very at times.

Khash (37:27.206)
masculine environment. But it’s, as the critic Hilton and I all said, it’s all drag. And so it’s really fun for me to put on that drag of masculinity and then and to be talking farce to my childhood friend and then to like be hitting on some one of the guys, you know what mean? But then also be talking shit straight, know, be like, yeah, of course, you’re not going to win. What are you talking about? You know, so it’s like all of these things can exist. And to me,

think that’s a lesson I continue to learn and one that I think the book and the process of writing the book introduced me to that idea. don’t think that the book fully sort of masters it, but I think it’s an attempt to show like, fuck, after 9 -11 and after all this Islamophobia, like Kay returns to the mosque and is attempting to connect with this God that he, know, that the American side of him.

is told to reject and that is as evil and the cause of all all these deaths.

JP, you got me fired up,

J.P. Der Boghossian (38:34.582)
Good, that’s the point of this. Renee, how about for you?

René Zadoorian (38:37.875)
Thank

René Zadoorian (38:41.223)
What was the main question?

J.P. Der Boghossian (38:43.798)
Through your writing, how are you exploring a queer person’s having to navigate multiple different cultural identities, particularly when you’re not necessarily from an American, white American sense of queerness. How do you explore that within your own writing of how should we be navigating those? How can we hold these identities together?

René Zadoorian (39:14.813)
I’m honestly not sure.

I think, yeah, I’m honestly not sure. I think that the way that I write about identity, it’s mostly from personal experiences that I think

wouldn’t really make sense to, like for example, how Koshra’s explaining this intersection of being masculine and also being queer and also talking your shit and also all of these things existing at the same time. I think that that’s very hard to capture in writing.

But at the same time, when you do, it’s very rewarding because it’s kind of like this thing exists and you put it into a character. I don’t know if I’m explaining it in a very cohesive way because it’s not even cohesive in my mind, honestly. But when I do write, I try to also show that yes, you can be masculine and you can be…

queer and you can be Armenian and you can be queer and you can speak Armenian and be queer in Armenian. I think that there’s just so many intersections of identity that can be included in writing that I think kind of separates a book from being good and then you feeling like you are connected to it, which again was what I found with this book. I don’t know if that makes…

René Zadoorian (41:01.395)
any sense but I tried to put into words.

J.P. Der Boghossian (41:01.847)
yeah, yeah it does.

Kosh, you said earlier that… I want to make sure I get this right. It kind of felt like you had to write this book to be able to get to the next projects that you want to be working on. Is that right?

Khash (41:21.612)
Yes, yes.

J.P. Der Boghossian (41:23.53)
Why do you think that is that you had to get this story done first?

Khash (41:29.578)
think a lot of it has to do with voice and the… mean, leave it to somebody to explain voice or tone to you and you realize how dumb they are. So I feel like it’s so hard to explain voice, but if I had to attempt, I think a lot of the voice of this book is grounded in its presence. And again, as I was explaining earlier,

in the specific diction and straightforwardness. And I have just been followed by that voice for a very long time. And it felt sort of a progression that I had to attempt to write about these themes in.

And the way that I did before I could move on and even a subtle, what seems like a subtle shift in POV. So if you’re writing in first person in the immediate tense versus let’s say writing in the first person, but in past tense, even that create that distance. Like an example, so this book opens up with K say, I climbed down the bunk ladder. And so there’s that immediacy and it’s.

it’s you’re going to be told the experiences as Kay is experiencing them. Whereas in another great queer book that has saved a lot of lives, We the Animals by Justin Torres, his book opens up as if we wanted more. so immediately you know that the narrator is describing experience of that happened in the past. And I think it both requires a certain amount of

focus and attention and commitment and I’m excited to see what it’s like to look back at these themes and these experiences and attempt to convey them but I don’t think I would have been able to get there had I not done it way first.

J.P. Der Boghossian (43:40.96)
title is gorgeous. Can you tell a little bit more about how you came to that title?

Khash (43:46.262)
My sister Farouk, Farouk Faragzad, an incredible poet and artist who was taken way too young from the community and from Iran and dared to write about sexuality and desire and living when to be a woman writing about those things was not only taboo but threatening and

She lost her biological son. Her son was taken out of her care because of it. And I mean, it can go on and on, but she was so resilient and such a force. And one of her poems is titled, Will Greet the Sun Again. And when we were thinking of a title for this book, both my editor and I were going through Farouk’s collection and my editor came across that one and it felt very…

really appropriate, given how much the sun plays a role in both Los Angeles and in Isfahan and Iran.

J.P. Der Boghossian (44:55.284)
René, either based on our conversation we’re having today or previously, and we have a few minutes left, is there a question that you would like to ask Kash about? Yeah, go for it.

René Zadoorian (45:03.709)
Yes, yes. Well.

So a lot of times when we are writing about these themes, especially when there’s queerness involved with cultural references, I always…

Well, I don’t let my family read my stories. So if I share, if something gets published, I just say like, it was published. And they’re like, when is it coming out? And I tell them that I just dropped it. But I was wondering, has anybody in your family or yeah, just anybody in your family, had they read the book and what was that experience like to give something so

René Zadoorian (45:55.367)
Well, it’s hard to kind of articulate again, which I have a hard time with words, which is very funny. I just want to ask, has anybody in your family read the book? And what was that experience like knowing what you’ve written and the themes that it touches on? just the book itself, had anybody read it?

Khash (46:20.994)
Yeah, it’s one of those questions where, at least to my ear and my heart, are sort of five different questions baked within it because it’s such a big question. the short answer is I’m not entirely sure if anybody has. I know

I know, for instance, my eldest brother has read some of it. My other brother, I’m not sure. My mother, I’m not sure. My father, I’m estranged from. So I want to be able to answer that. But I think the other questions within that question of how does one write about these things, knowing that family, you know, the kind of

the cliche advice that you’ll hear in a non -fiction class, in a memoir writing class is wait till the person dies if you’re gonna write about your experience with them, which wasn’t an option for me. I didn’t feel, A, it’s a novel, but B, even though there’s a lot of overlap, I was willing to do it, even if, regardless of what the response.

would have been and it certainly hasn’t been as vicious as I know other writers have encountered but also certainly hasn’t been joyous in that regard. that’s something that I went into knowing even during the process when I came to New York and if certain family members would ask how my writing was going, I very protective about it, refused.

to share anything because I didn’t want their opinions or insights to affect the writing. And I also didn’t want to know if they were going to be upset. But then, of course, when it’s published and they read it, then you’re opening yourself up to that possibility of anger. What I realize now, though, not only do I not have to show family, I don’t even have to tell. I mean, it’s such a loud

Khash (48:40.94)
busy world where unless you’re like Prince Harry, nobody’s nobody really knows that you’re publishing, you know, unless they’re like specifically looking up your name. So. Right, as honestly as you can, I think that’s a great it’s a great way to conclude this conversation with with bringing it back to Martin, who he always he always says.

If you’ve told the truth, what’s the complaint? Which I think is so good. So yeah, just keep writing the truth and then if somebody has something to say about it, that’s on them.

J.P. Der Boghossian (49:21.846)
I love that. I love that. That is a great place to conclude. So one quick final question for each of you. Renee, what is next in life for you?

René Zadoorian (49:34.391)
so currently I work at a bookstore and, I am applying to MFA programs later this year, to a few, a few different programs. so hopefully my MFA is on the way. but, in terms of writing, I have been in such a writer’s block recently and, it’s been very hard to get out of, but I think.

I’m just looking forward to sending out more short stories, especially with Armenian characters. And whether they get published or not, they are written and somebody is able to read them. And I think having more queer Armenian characters, especially in like short stories and any of my writing, it just adds to

you know, ocean of things, well, puddle of things that is queer Armenia. And it just, I just want, you know, people to have access to just a story where they can read it and be like, like essentially a story where they will have the same reaction as I did when I had read this novel to feel a sort of connection with something that you did not know.

was out there.

J.P. Der Boghossian (51:07.501)
That’s great. Thank you. And Kash, how about for you? What is next in life?

Khash (51:13.518)
So yeah, as I said earlier, writing will always be a part of my life. And the extent of it depends on what’s currently going on. Right now I’m working six days a week at this bakery and my best friend who lives out here, an incredibly talented chef. We had a pop -up for some Persian food on Saturday and I’m gonna continue to…

do that and put effort and energy toward it and I promised myself I’ll start doing yoga. I love staying active. It really helps, especially with all the heartbreak and horror happening in the world. Particularly speaking of in Gaza, what’s happening.

to the children is what I’ve sort of particularly been haunted by. And so I’ve just been trying to take care of myself and take care of my heart and also take care of others as best as I can. And then if there’s 30 minutes, an hour, two hours left over, I’m in the day and I’ve got the energy, then yeah, working on another book length project.

But I recognize it feels right now not really compassionate to expect lots of productivity. And then maybe Renee, maybe that’s, you know, maybe that speaks to the writer’s block, because I’ve certainly felt that. But I also have reminded myself there are a lot of reasons that one might feel blocked right now. There’s also lot of reasons people would feel inspired. I understand that too. It’s just, I’ve kind of come to know that.

I don’t really operate under that pressure. I gotta really be kind to myself. So that’s what I’ve been doing and it’s been really, it’s been fun. I’ve been having such a damn good summer here in New York.

J.P. Der Boghossian (53:15.899)
That’s great. Do you want me for both of you, do you me to share the name of the bakery and the bookstore or would you rather keep that private?

Khash (53:25.228)
Keep it private.

René Zadoorian (53:26.14)
Yeah.

J.P. Der Boghossian (53:26.391)
No, okay. Perfect, perfect. Okay, I am going to click stop recording. Please don’t go anywhere.